Tweet
Everything is in order, says Armenian defence minister
Golos Armenii, Yerevan
15 Apr 04
Armenian Defence Minister Serzh Sarkisyan has defended the actions of
the law-enforcement agencies in breaking up the opposition rally on
12-13 April. He told Armenian newspaper Golos Armenii that "2,000
people" could not be allowed to disrupt the life of the whole
nation. Accusing the opposition of trying to delude the people,
Sarkisyan said that the rallies showed that they had no organizational
ability. "Everything is in order," he said, asked to comment on the
current situation. He acknowledged that Armenia's position in
negotiations on Nagornyy Karabakh would be stronger if there were no
domestic political tension, but insisted that Armenia's stance
remained unchanged. Sarkisyan said that it was too soon to say whether
or not Armenia would attend the NATO exercises to be held in Baku in
September. Economic, rather than democratic, development is Armenia's
priority, Sarkisyan said. Text of Ruben Markaryan's interview with
Sarkisyan in Golos Armenii on 15 April headlined "`Everything is in
order,' Serzh Sarkisyan"; ellipses as published by the newspaper
throughout, subheadings inserted editorially:
An exclusive interview with Armenian Defence Minister Serzh Sarkisyan.
Everything is in order
[Golos Armenii correspondent] Mr Sarkisyan, the first question is
about the domestic political situation. How do you assess the recent
events, in particular the opposition meetings and dispersal of the
demonstration on Bagramyan Avenue?
[Serzh Sarkisyan] Everything is in order. In order to assess today's
situation correctly, let us go back several months and recall how the
irreconcilable minority was threatening to announce the time, day and
even hour of the change of power. The authorities took those
statements and threats very calmly, but the opposition opted to worsen
the situation. You know, we reacted calmly to lies, invented
accusations and even personal insults... But that was until they
started talking openly about taking power by force. Then the
authorities took certain measures and we have seen the result... They
threatened to take 100-150,000 people onto the streets. They made
announcements on behalf of the people as though only the radical
opposition are the people's representatives and all the rest are their
enemies. Today it is obvious that these people do not have any right
to speak on behalf of the people, as they could not get even the
number of voters of one constituency to their rally... Moreover,
either because they were annoyed by this or insulted, they decided to
resort to extreme measures.
Let's recall the sequence of events: the opposition wanted to hold a
rally on Theatre Square [also known as Freedom Square], they held one,
although it had not actually been authorized. The opposition wanted to
hold a sit-down strike, again no-one stopped them, but, unfortunately,
today's radicals are the type of people who consider a normal attitude
to be a sign of weakness and become more insolent... And the
opposition decided that 2,000 people could come and disrupt the normal
life of the whole nation. Of course, the law-enforcement structures
had to take steps...
Opposition are deluding people
[Correspondent] The results are evident. But what conclusions may be
drawn from what happened?
[Sarkisyan] Conclusions... First of all, the executive power should
make conclusions. We should look at our work in a new way. You know,
nobody, neither the president nor prime minister nor any minister said
that there is no problem in their sphere and everything is OK. There
are numerous problems. Specifically in my sphere there are many
problems, but we work on the principle: everything is
relative. Otherwise the question will undoubtedly arise: "But who are
the judges?" From this point of view, if we compare 2004 and 2000,
progress is obvious. Moreover, in all spheres. We should try to make
the progress more noticeable, tangible, but at the same time we should
and will put in their place those who are trying to play on the
people's emotions, who are trying to delude the people, to speak in
their name.
Recently I had the pleasure at the Drama Theatre to hear once more the
marvellous thoughts of Paruyr Sevak, declaimed by actor Artur
Utmazyan. "To delude the people is a crime", Paruyr Sevak said. You
have to agree with him. It really is a crime to play on the people's
social problems and say: "You go, we'll come in and do better." Who
said that they can do better? Another marvellous poet, Shota
Rustaveli, said: "Everyone thinks he is a strategist when he watches a
battle from the sidelines."
It seems to them that they can do something. But it is obvious that,
even in organizing rallies, these people do not even have an iota of
organizing ability. All their activity is based on lies and
falsification. They lie, both in the small things and the big. They do
not hesitate to look into the eyes of those who came to support
them. I cannot imagine how, seeing 5-6,000 people who have come to
support them, they can say: "My dear people, thank you that 100,000 of
you have come." And they do not even blush. What can you make of the
speeches of the opposition leaders in the foreign press, first of all
the Russian? What kind of behaviour is that? They have convinced
themselves that we are leading the people to disaster and now they are
trying to persuade other people of this, our friends as well as
enemies. What is this, if not betrayal? It turns out that they are
aspiring to assure Azerbaijan: "Look, the authorities in Armenia have
neither a basis nor an army. Come and achieve your objectives!"
[Correspondent] The view has been spread that our opposition is acting
in unison with Azerbaijan...
[Sarkisyan] No, certainly there is no direct connection. Here there
may not be two opinions. It is another question if the interests
coincide here. The problem is that these people are unscrupulous.
There is only one slogan for them - the worse it is in Armenia, the
better for them. Azerbaijan is certainly guided by the same slogan,
and not only Azerbaijan...
Armenia's position on Karabakh unchanged
[Correspondent] By the way, the national security minister of
Azerbaijan has often spoken recently about his secret service in
Armenia. Do you see signs of it?
[Sarkisyan] I think that these statements are first of all made for
local consumption. After all, it is known that the Azerbaijanis like
to boast and not only about this... Sometimes they liberate what seem
to them to be villages, sometimes something else... No serious leader
of a secret service of a serious country will say openly that his
secret service is operating in another country. This childishness ill
befits the leader of a secret service.
[Correspondent] May the domestic political tension negatively affect
the country's foreign policy objectives, in particular the diplomatic
settlement of the Karabakh conflict?
[Sarkisyan] It is clear that there is no benefit from this
situation. During any talks our positions will be much stronger, if
this type of situation does not arise. It is no secret that the
soundness of any country, especially of a country that is in a state
of "neither war nor peace", the soundness of any army, mostly depends
on the soundness of its rear. As for the NKR problem, I should say
that in this matter the positions of the Armenian authorities are
strong and unchangeable. There are three known principles: the
impossibility of Artsakh [Karabakh] being subordinate to Azerbaijan;
the impossibility of an enclave status for Artsakh; and security
guarantees. We have neither the desire nor the potential to give up
something more and we shall stand up for our position. It is also
known that today the negotiating process has slowed down at the
initiative of Azerbaijan.
[Correspondent] Recently Azerbaijan's new foreign minister stated
their principles, that Azerbaijan will not agree to the independence
of Karabakh or its joining Armenia.
[Sarkisyan] These are not new principles. All this has been the
corner-stone of their activity since 1988, and if a new president of
Azerbaijan wants to travel the same road that we travelled since 1988,
that is his problem. I do not understand what it means "to start from
scratch". From 1988, 1918 or may be to go even further back?
Armenia guarantor of Karabakh's security
[Correspondent] You talked about the connection between the soundness
of the rear and of the army. What is the situation in the Armenian
armed forces today?
[Sarkisyan] I need a very long time to answer this question. To be
brief, we are implementing the plan for 2004, in particular in
supporting the fighting efficiency of the armed forces. Exercises are
held from time to time, they are more or less objective criteria of
the fighting efficiency of the troops. Recently we held
command-headquarters exercises for the first time. Our objective was
to learn how in the conditions of constant reforms in the economy our
structures were able to adapt to these new conditions in the rear, to
the problems of material supplies, replenishment and fighting
efficiency. The exercises showed that, in spite of problems, the
situation may be considered satisfactory.
[Correspondent] They say in Azerbaijan that in your ministry they are
going to reconsider the military doctrine and, according to the
foreseen changes, if war resumes, the NKR army will pass under the
direct subordination of the Armenian armed forces. What is the state
of the military doctrine? Is there one?
[Sarkisyan] We have a military doctrine. But it does not exist on its
own, it is part of the whole security system. Maybe we need one
general document, the main part of which will be our military
doctrine. But as a rule these tactical problems are not touched on in
military doctrines. But it is clear that Armenia and, in particular,
our army is the guarantor of the Nagornyy Karabakh people's security,
nobody has nor should they have any illusions about this. The doctrine
may change, it may not change, there may be a doctrine, there may
not... Armenia is the guarantor of Nagornyy Karabakh's security.
[Correspondent] Are you satisfied with the budget of our armed forces?
They often say that Azerbaijan's military budget is much larger than
ours.
[Sarkisyan] Really our military budget is almost half that of
Azerbaijan. But I think that the resources given are enough to support
the army's fighting efficiency and the dynamic of change in the
military budget is acceptable. I do not want to touch on the details,
but the Azerbaijani army is bigger than ours so for this reason
expenditure is also greater. In addition, the president and prime
minister of our republic often find opportunities to settle some of
the armed forces' problems, which should have been settled from the
military budget.
Too early to say if Armenia will go to NATO exercises in Baku
[Correspondent] The relations of our armed forces with the [CIS]
Collective Security Treaty [CST] are more or less obvious. What can
you say about cooperation with NATO? Will Armenia take part in the
NATO exercises in Baku this autumn?
[Sarkisyan] It is still early to give a final answer, but at the last
stage of planning for the exercises in Kiev we confirmed that as a
fully-fledged member of the Partnership for Peace programme we have
the right and are obliged to take part in the exercises. We shall see
how Azerbaijan will behave in future. As for our relations with NATO,
they are moving forward. We continue to integrate into different NATO
programmes and I think this can only be useful for our armed
forces. Remaining a member of the CST, we shall develop our bilateral
relations with NATO and the countries of the bloc. Our military
cooperation with NATO is also developing normally. I think we do not
have the right to become closed in on ourselves and we shall only gain
from that cooperation.
[Correspondent] To put the question more basically, do you not think
that we are lagging behind Georgia and Azerbaijan in cooperation with
NATO?
[Sarkisyan] If we take into account only the statements of Georgia and
Azerbaijan about their desire to become a member of the bloc, in this
sense they are ahead. Joining NATO is not on our foreign policy agenda
and, for this reason, naturally we do not make this kind of statement,
here everything is clear. As for the level of cooperation, we are not
lagging behind.
Economy the priority
[Correspondent] As secretary of the Security Council, what current
objective of Armenian statehood is the most relevant?
[Sarkisyan] It is difficult to single out one. Nevertheless, I think
the main objective is to ensure high rates of economic development. If
the economy is developing at a high rate, then the country's budget
will be able to allocate funds to security as well as social problems
and the army. Stable rates of development, this is the most important
today. My words may seem strange, because it is accepted to speak much
about the priority of democracy and human values. But for me it is
almost an axiom: all this first of all depends on economic
development, on the means in your budget, on the wages and pensions of
citizens, on the wages and pensions of the officers of the armed
forces, on the means to ensure security and the development of
democratic institutions. I am sure that if by some miracle we manage
to increase the living standard in Armenia 10 times, in that case
hardly anyone would want to go to rallies. For this reason I think
that all the efforts should be directed at achieving this objective.
No damage to Armenia's international image from dispersal of rally
[Correspondent] What do you think, may the recent events in Armenia
have a negative affect on the attitude of international organizations
and Western countries towards our country?
[Sarkisyan] I do not think so, because everything was within the
framework of the law. Every day you see on the television the steps
taken by European and US law-enforcement agencies to support public
order. I think that, on the contrary, nobody would have understood us
if 2,000 people had paralysed the life of the whole of Yerevan.
Golos Armenii, Yerevan
15 Apr 04
Armenian Defence Minister Serzh Sarkisyan has defended the actions of
the law-enforcement agencies in breaking up the opposition rally on
12-13 April. He told Armenian newspaper Golos Armenii that "2,000
people" could not be allowed to disrupt the life of the whole
nation. Accusing the opposition of trying to delude the people,
Sarkisyan said that the rallies showed that they had no organizational
ability. "Everything is in order," he said, asked to comment on the
current situation. He acknowledged that Armenia's position in
negotiations on Nagornyy Karabakh would be stronger if there were no
domestic political tension, but insisted that Armenia's stance
remained unchanged. Sarkisyan said that it was too soon to say whether
or not Armenia would attend the NATO exercises to be held in Baku in
September. Economic, rather than democratic, development is Armenia's
priority, Sarkisyan said. Text of Ruben Markaryan's interview with
Sarkisyan in Golos Armenii on 15 April headlined "`Everything is in
order,' Serzh Sarkisyan"; ellipses as published by the newspaper
throughout, subheadings inserted editorially:
An exclusive interview with Armenian Defence Minister Serzh Sarkisyan.
Everything is in order
[Golos Armenii correspondent] Mr Sarkisyan, the first question is
about the domestic political situation. How do you assess the recent
events, in particular the opposition meetings and dispersal of the
demonstration on Bagramyan Avenue?
[Serzh Sarkisyan] Everything is in order. In order to assess today's
situation correctly, let us go back several months and recall how the
irreconcilable minority was threatening to announce the time, day and
even hour of the change of power. The authorities took those
statements and threats very calmly, but the opposition opted to worsen
the situation. You know, we reacted calmly to lies, invented
accusations and even personal insults... But that was until they
started talking openly about taking power by force. Then the
authorities took certain measures and we have seen the result... They
threatened to take 100-150,000 people onto the streets. They made
announcements on behalf of the people as though only the radical
opposition are the people's representatives and all the rest are their
enemies. Today it is obvious that these people do not have any right
to speak on behalf of the people, as they could not get even the
number of voters of one constituency to their rally... Moreover,
either because they were annoyed by this or insulted, they decided to
resort to extreme measures.
Let's recall the sequence of events: the opposition wanted to hold a
rally on Theatre Square [also known as Freedom Square], they held one,
although it had not actually been authorized. The opposition wanted to
hold a sit-down strike, again no-one stopped them, but, unfortunately,
today's radicals are the type of people who consider a normal attitude
to be a sign of weakness and become more insolent... And the
opposition decided that 2,000 people could come and disrupt the normal
life of the whole nation. Of course, the law-enforcement structures
had to take steps...
Opposition are deluding people
[Correspondent] The results are evident. But what conclusions may be
drawn from what happened?
[Sarkisyan] Conclusions... First of all, the executive power should
make conclusions. We should look at our work in a new way. You know,
nobody, neither the president nor prime minister nor any minister said
that there is no problem in their sphere and everything is OK. There
are numerous problems. Specifically in my sphere there are many
problems, but we work on the principle: everything is
relative. Otherwise the question will undoubtedly arise: "But who are
the judges?" From this point of view, if we compare 2004 and 2000,
progress is obvious. Moreover, in all spheres. We should try to make
the progress more noticeable, tangible, but at the same time we should
and will put in their place those who are trying to play on the
people's emotions, who are trying to delude the people, to speak in
their name.
Recently I had the pleasure at the Drama Theatre to hear once more the
marvellous thoughts of Paruyr Sevak, declaimed by actor Artur
Utmazyan. "To delude the people is a crime", Paruyr Sevak said. You
have to agree with him. It really is a crime to play on the people's
social problems and say: "You go, we'll come in and do better." Who
said that they can do better? Another marvellous poet, Shota
Rustaveli, said: "Everyone thinks he is a strategist when he watches a
battle from the sidelines."
It seems to them that they can do something. But it is obvious that,
even in organizing rallies, these people do not even have an iota of
organizing ability. All their activity is based on lies and
falsification. They lie, both in the small things and the big. They do
not hesitate to look into the eyes of those who came to support
them. I cannot imagine how, seeing 5-6,000 people who have come to
support them, they can say: "My dear people, thank you that 100,000 of
you have come." And they do not even blush. What can you make of the
speeches of the opposition leaders in the foreign press, first of all
the Russian? What kind of behaviour is that? They have convinced
themselves that we are leading the people to disaster and now they are
trying to persuade other people of this, our friends as well as
enemies. What is this, if not betrayal? It turns out that they are
aspiring to assure Azerbaijan: "Look, the authorities in Armenia have
neither a basis nor an army. Come and achieve your objectives!"
[Correspondent] The view has been spread that our opposition is acting
in unison with Azerbaijan...
[Sarkisyan] No, certainly there is no direct connection. Here there
may not be two opinions. It is another question if the interests
coincide here. The problem is that these people are unscrupulous.
There is only one slogan for them - the worse it is in Armenia, the
better for them. Azerbaijan is certainly guided by the same slogan,
and not only Azerbaijan...
Armenia's position on Karabakh unchanged
[Correspondent] By the way, the national security minister of
Azerbaijan has often spoken recently about his secret service in
Armenia. Do you see signs of it?
[Sarkisyan] I think that these statements are first of all made for
local consumption. After all, it is known that the Azerbaijanis like
to boast and not only about this... Sometimes they liberate what seem
to them to be villages, sometimes something else... No serious leader
of a secret service of a serious country will say openly that his
secret service is operating in another country. This childishness ill
befits the leader of a secret service.
[Correspondent] May the domestic political tension negatively affect
the country's foreign policy objectives, in particular the diplomatic
settlement of the Karabakh conflict?
[Sarkisyan] It is clear that there is no benefit from this
situation. During any talks our positions will be much stronger, if
this type of situation does not arise. It is no secret that the
soundness of any country, especially of a country that is in a state
of "neither war nor peace", the soundness of any army, mostly depends
on the soundness of its rear. As for the NKR problem, I should say
that in this matter the positions of the Armenian authorities are
strong and unchangeable. There are three known principles: the
impossibility of Artsakh [Karabakh] being subordinate to Azerbaijan;
the impossibility of an enclave status for Artsakh; and security
guarantees. We have neither the desire nor the potential to give up
something more and we shall stand up for our position. It is also
known that today the negotiating process has slowed down at the
initiative of Azerbaijan.
[Correspondent] Recently Azerbaijan's new foreign minister stated
their principles, that Azerbaijan will not agree to the independence
of Karabakh or its joining Armenia.
[Sarkisyan] These are not new principles. All this has been the
corner-stone of their activity since 1988, and if a new president of
Azerbaijan wants to travel the same road that we travelled since 1988,
that is his problem. I do not understand what it means "to start from
scratch". From 1988, 1918 or may be to go even further back?
Armenia guarantor of Karabakh's security
[Correspondent] You talked about the connection between the soundness
of the rear and of the army. What is the situation in the Armenian
armed forces today?
[Sarkisyan] I need a very long time to answer this question. To be
brief, we are implementing the plan for 2004, in particular in
supporting the fighting efficiency of the armed forces. Exercises are
held from time to time, they are more or less objective criteria of
the fighting efficiency of the troops. Recently we held
command-headquarters exercises for the first time. Our objective was
to learn how in the conditions of constant reforms in the economy our
structures were able to adapt to these new conditions in the rear, to
the problems of material supplies, replenishment and fighting
efficiency. The exercises showed that, in spite of problems, the
situation may be considered satisfactory.
[Correspondent] They say in Azerbaijan that in your ministry they are
going to reconsider the military doctrine and, according to the
foreseen changes, if war resumes, the NKR army will pass under the
direct subordination of the Armenian armed forces. What is the state
of the military doctrine? Is there one?
[Sarkisyan] We have a military doctrine. But it does not exist on its
own, it is part of the whole security system. Maybe we need one
general document, the main part of which will be our military
doctrine. But as a rule these tactical problems are not touched on in
military doctrines. But it is clear that Armenia and, in particular,
our army is the guarantor of the Nagornyy Karabakh people's security,
nobody has nor should they have any illusions about this. The doctrine
may change, it may not change, there may be a doctrine, there may
not... Armenia is the guarantor of Nagornyy Karabakh's security.
[Correspondent] Are you satisfied with the budget of our armed forces?
They often say that Azerbaijan's military budget is much larger than
ours.
[Sarkisyan] Really our military budget is almost half that of
Azerbaijan. But I think that the resources given are enough to support
the army's fighting efficiency and the dynamic of change in the
military budget is acceptable. I do not want to touch on the details,
but the Azerbaijani army is bigger than ours so for this reason
expenditure is also greater. In addition, the president and prime
minister of our republic often find opportunities to settle some of
the armed forces' problems, which should have been settled from the
military budget.
Too early to say if Armenia will go to NATO exercises in Baku
[Correspondent] The relations of our armed forces with the [CIS]
Collective Security Treaty [CST] are more or less obvious. What can
you say about cooperation with NATO? Will Armenia take part in the
NATO exercises in Baku this autumn?
[Sarkisyan] It is still early to give a final answer, but at the last
stage of planning for the exercises in Kiev we confirmed that as a
fully-fledged member of the Partnership for Peace programme we have
the right and are obliged to take part in the exercises. We shall see
how Azerbaijan will behave in future. As for our relations with NATO,
they are moving forward. We continue to integrate into different NATO
programmes and I think this can only be useful for our armed
forces. Remaining a member of the CST, we shall develop our bilateral
relations with NATO and the countries of the bloc. Our military
cooperation with NATO is also developing normally. I think we do not
have the right to become closed in on ourselves and we shall only gain
from that cooperation.
[Correspondent] To put the question more basically, do you not think
that we are lagging behind Georgia and Azerbaijan in cooperation with
NATO?
[Sarkisyan] If we take into account only the statements of Georgia and
Azerbaijan about their desire to become a member of the bloc, in this
sense they are ahead. Joining NATO is not on our foreign policy agenda
and, for this reason, naturally we do not make this kind of statement,
here everything is clear. As for the level of cooperation, we are not
lagging behind.
Economy the priority
[Correspondent] As secretary of the Security Council, what current
objective of Armenian statehood is the most relevant?
[Sarkisyan] It is difficult to single out one. Nevertheless, I think
the main objective is to ensure high rates of economic development. If
the economy is developing at a high rate, then the country's budget
will be able to allocate funds to security as well as social problems
and the army. Stable rates of development, this is the most important
today. My words may seem strange, because it is accepted to speak much
about the priority of democracy and human values. But for me it is
almost an axiom: all this first of all depends on economic
development, on the means in your budget, on the wages and pensions of
citizens, on the wages and pensions of the officers of the armed
forces, on the means to ensure security and the development of
democratic institutions. I am sure that if by some miracle we manage
to increase the living standard in Armenia 10 times, in that case
hardly anyone would want to go to rallies. For this reason I think
that all the efforts should be directed at achieving this objective.
No damage to Armenia's international image from dispersal of rally
[Correspondent] What do you think, may the recent events in Armenia
have a negative affect on the attitude of international organizations
and Western countries towards our country?
[Sarkisyan] I do not think so, because everything was within the
framework of the law. Every day you see on the television the steps
taken by European and US law-enforcement agencies to support public
order. I think that, on the contrary, nobody would have understood us
if 2,000 people had paralysed the life of the whole of Yerevan.