Tweet
Kavkaz Center, Turkey
Aug 6 2004
"Russia's time in the Caucasus is up..."
Interview with Nodar Natadze, Ph.D., Chairman of People's Front of
Georgia.
The South Ossetian roundabout has started going around an endless
circle, and many in Georgia are worrying about what is going on and
who is trying to achieve what. These are the questions that Kavkaz
Center reporter asked the Leader of People's Front of Georgia Nodar
Natadze.
KC: Mr. Natadze, please tell us what is really going on? Who is
trying to achieve what? On the one hand, they are saying that the war
would have been a big mistake, but on the other hand, the way to
dismember Georgia through the so-called 'federalization' seems to be
just as dangerous. So, where is the way out, and why the Georgian
central government, the official Tbilisi went for the aggravation,
while anticipating today's outcome?
N.Natadze: Before I answer your questions, this is what I would like
to mention: I am very concerned and tragically shocked by the fact
that the Georgian leadership allowed a joint patrol of
Georgian-Chechen border. If it's just tactics and a short-term
action, it's all right. But if it is strategy, then it is tragedy.
For me it is one of the most tragic among the most recent phenomena.
Russian border guards have nothing to do in jointly patrolling the
Georgian-Chechen border. Too bad that they are stationed on the
Chechen side. But why would they need to be on this side as well? It
is fundamentally unacceptable.
There can be no Georgian-Russian joint war on terror, because those
who are called terrorists in Russia are not terrorists here.
And now let me answer your questions. There is no Ossetia south of
the Caucasus Mountain Range in existence, and there can never be any.
Russian invaders were the ones who came up with the Ossetian word to
call sections of that territory in the 19th century. And the word was
an adjective and not a noun.
It was called Ossetian District. This is what they were calling the
territories in the upper reaches of the Aragvi River and a little
area southwest of it. And another Ossetian District was the territory
north of the Caucasus Mountain Range, which used to belong to Georgia
during Georgian kings. It is the Ardon vicinity, etc.
Mainly, the Ossetians started settling on Georgian territories since
1864, when serfdom was abolished in Georgia. Georgian nobles and
princes lost their serfs but the lands remained theirs. In order to
till these lands when serf labor was no longer available, they
started inviting Ossetians from the northern slopes of the Caucasus
Mountains.
KC: But still, maybe it was a political issue instead of an agrarian
one? Let's just recall how during the same period of time in
Javakhetia [Southern Georgia] 40 thousand families of Georgian
Muslims were expelled to Turkey and Armenians were moved to these
lands later. Then some Georgian lands were inhabited by Germans,
Greeks, etc.
N.Natadze: Ossetians came to Georgia as agricultural workers. As the
ones who were given shelter. Thus, the Russian census conducted in
the end of the 19th century lists 15 thousand Ossetian families in
Eastern Georgia. All of them were doing agricultural work, but none
of them owned any pieces of land. This is how a critical agrarian
conflict was created. There was agricultural population, who had no
property or land of their own.
By using these purely agrarian tensions, the Bolsheviks organized an
armed Ossetian uprising in the northern part of central Georgia back
in 1918. It was a rebellion against Georgia, which back then was
independent. Under the guise of a national movement. But really it
was an agrarian movement of agricultural workers. It was taking
pretty brutal forms.
Georgian side took police measures against the armed uprising. But
these measures were brought to naught. After Russia invaded Georgia
in 1921, the Caucasus Bureau of the Bolsheviks decided to complete
the job and set up the South Ossetian Autonomous Region.
Even for one hour Ossetian territorial autonomy on the Georgian soil
has never existed and will never exist without the presence of
Russian regular forces. Two Soviet regiments were stationed there
back during the Soviet times. A helicopter regiment and an
engineering regiment. They were the ones who maintained control of
the situation. Right now, as a result of traitorous signature of
Shevardnadze [former Georgian president], who was nothing but a
usurper at that time - under the guise of being a chairman of an
illegal State Council (no one else had elected him), these Russian
troops are still stationed there. Then the document was signed: the
agreement on inviting the so-called 'peacekeepers' to the Tskhinvali
area in order to keep the sides separated. And these days these armed
forces are using the traitorous signature of Shevardnadze as the
pretext. They have no other grounds.
Russia has always been promoting Ossetinization of those territories.
When that administrative region was being created, Ossetians had
always been a minority. Most of the Georgian population had to leave
their lands and now they are in the position of refugees. Russia was
pursuing the same policies in Javakhetia, with the only difference
that it was being done bloodlessly. 30 thousand Armenian families
were moved to that area to replace ousted Georgian Muslims. During
the war of 1928-1929 Georgian Muslims left that seat of war. And once
the peace agreement was signed, they were not allowed to return
there.
It's been a while since Moscow has been persistently pursuing the
policies of 'Georgia without Georgians'. This line was even adopted
in the midst of the so-called Russian intellectuals, let alone
representatives of the authorities.
There was a time when even Academician Sakharov (supposedly a
democrat and a human rights activist) even admitted it. When he was
young he used to visit one of the mountaineer camps in the North
Caucasus every summer. Famous Georgian mountaineer Sandro Gvelia was
the leader of that camp. They had wonderful friendly relationship.
And all of a sudden Sandro asked Sakharov: «Why you don't like
Georgia?» And he answered: «Why, why... We do like Georgia, we just
don't like Georgians». This is the essence of the Russian policies.
As far as the present-day situation goes, it is now developing under
the pressure of objective processes. Regardless of what we do, Russia
is now vacating the South Caucasus. The West has a vital interest in
having a free access to Central Asia, which is not controlled by
Russia. If the West makes it on time, it would be good. If it
doesn't, then the World War III will certainly take place. And the
frontlines of this war will be at the Caspian Sea.
If the West manages to gain a firm foothold in the South Caucasus,
then the war will either not happen due to the absence of the
adversary, or its frontlines will be located between Central Asia and
China.
It is of vital interest to the West. Not imperial or economic
interest, but vital interest. Russia has no such interests in the
Caucasus. It only has its imperial interest. So, the interests of the
West are greater than Russia's interests are.
But Russia wants to retain some even tiny piece of territory for the
future, -- by actively using many of its agents in Georgia. Just in
case. For instance, it wants to set up the status of the Tskhinvali
[capital of South Ossetia] and Abkhaz zones in a way that these
territories could be virtually independent from Georgia and so that
Russia could be the guarantor of that status. Russia wants these time
bombs on the body of Georgia.
And now Georgia's problem is to make Russia leave without leaving
these bombs. This is what we are interested in. The West doesn't
really care about it.
KC: And how would it be possible?
N.Natadze: It depends on how loyal the Georgian government is to the
people. War or negotiations based on force is actually all the same.
There will be no result without superiority in forces.
What is our superiority in forces guaranteed by? First of all, by
proper political steps. The government of Georgia must make a clear
statement that this is not a Georgian-Ossetian war, but a
Russian-Georgian war, and that the Tskhinvali zone is now occupied by
the Russian troops. Georgian government must abolish the status of
Russians as being 'peacekeepers'. These steps will either prevent
military intervention from the North or make it least likely.
Georgia has to be so strong, so that it could make a military
intervention least likely. Georgia will not be able to defeat Russia
if Russia starts attacking Georgia's positions when using Ossetian
banners. Maybe we are weaker, but we have to overpower this form of
intervention.
KC: Is it already the issue of a new war, or is it the continuation
of the war of 1992-1993?
N.Natadze: Russian-Georgian war has not stopped ever since. The enemy
took our territories and is now occupying these lands after being
assisted by Shevardnadze, who committed high treason. Right now our
mission is to stop this invasion.
KC: President of Georgia Mikhail Saakashvili probably has started
looking at Russia more soberly. He is very close to such
formulations. The first time he started calling things by their
proper names was when he said the word aggression, etc. But so far
there is no clear and comprehensive definition of the essence of
confrontation, and nor there is a clear definition of who the enemy
of Georgia is. Nor it is clear how far the promises of the
authorities to change the mandate of 'peacekeepers' will go.
Many are also concerned about the relations between the US and Russia
on the Georgian issue. Do you think some deals may be taking place
behind Georgia's back?
N.Natadze: The decision has already been made that Russians will not
be present in the Caucasus. Russia's time in the Caucasus is up.
There is nothing that can stop this process. Concerning the US help
to Georgia. First, it is the Western factor that keeps Russia from
conducting a direct strike against Georgia.
On the second day American unofficial diplomatic elite and diplomatic
community gathered when Mr. Saakashvili made his famous statement.
They were professional diplomats. There are very influential people
among them. They had a long and productive discussion on this subject
and all of them were unanimous that it must be recorded that Russia
and Georgia are the ones fighting the war in the Tskhinvali zone and
in Abkhazia. And not Ossetians or Abkhazians with Georgians.
This approach has already been recorded in the minds of the society.
In the West public opinion is only a step away from the official
opinion. So the decision has virtually been made.
I'd like to add something else. In 93 after my strong speeches during
the negotiations on the framework agreement, I had a meeting with the
new staff of Defense and Security Committee of the Russian State Duma
[parliament]. And one of the members said, it was in May 1993, this
is what he said: «We will lose the North Caucasus, but we will have a
war with them».
I started laughing and I said, «We've been living together for three
thousand years, but we never had a war with them. So why would a war
start today?»
All of it shows that Russian political elite knows full well that it
is going to lose the North Caucasus. They know it is inevitable. They
want to stretch out this process somehow, and get something in
exchange for their surrender by the time that day comes. They
perfectly know that the war for retaining the North Caucasus under
their control has no future. And the South Caucasus for them has no
future even hundreds of times more. Politicians know about it, only
an average Johnny doesn't.
KC: In the war with Georgia Russia has been actively using the factor
of temporarily lost territories, but Georgia has a political
nightstick, which is just as strong. I mean Chechnya. Why is the
official Georgia quiet about it? Georgia is afraid to talk about
Chechnya even when it is being choked and all kinds of vile methods
are used?
N.Natadze: Your question is the central question to characterize the
situation. My answer will be very sad. The whole problem is in
Georgian government's loyalty to their state and their people. There
is nothing else I can say.
Only through its one representative in the UN Georgia can start a
storm of pressure on the Russian policies in Chechnya without
violating the legal norms even for a milligram. But that seat is not
occupied by our man.
KC: What do you think about the all-Caucasus ideas?
N.Natadze: Union of the Caucasus countries and nations is surely a
great idea. It has very promising future. Power-wise. But this power
has its limits. This is why the work in this direction must fit into
the global context, whether we want it or not.
KC: Your optimism and your faith in the help from the West are very
strong, and unfortunately, yours truly has great doubts about it.
N.Natadze: It's not my faith, this is what I know.
KC: Anyway, we are always interested to listen to you, and we have
great respect for your opinion. Thank you.
Conversation was conducted by Data Tutashkhia, Tbilisi, Georgia.
For Kavkaz-Center
Aug 6 2004
"Russia's time in the Caucasus is up..."
Interview with Nodar Natadze, Ph.D., Chairman of People's Front of
Georgia.
The South Ossetian roundabout has started going around an endless
circle, and many in Georgia are worrying about what is going on and
who is trying to achieve what. These are the questions that Kavkaz
Center reporter asked the Leader of People's Front of Georgia Nodar
Natadze.
KC: Mr. Natadze, please tell us what is really going on? Who is
trying to achieve what? On the one hand, they are saying that the war
would have been a big mistake, but on the other hand, the way to
dismember Georgia through the so-called 'federalization' seems to be
just as dangerous. So, where is the way out, and why the Georgian
central government, the official Tbilisi went for the aggravation,
while anticipating today's outcome?
N.Natadze: Before I answer your questions, this is what I would like
to mention: I am very concerned and tragically shocked by the fact
that the Georgian leadership allowed a joint patrol of
Georgian-Chechen border. If it's just tactics and a short-term
action, it's all right. But if it is strategy, then it is tragedy.
For me it is one of the most tragic among the most recent phenomena.
Russian border guards have nothing to do in jointly patrolling the
Georgian-Chechen border. Too bad that they are stationed on the
Chechen side. But why would they need to be on this side as well? It
is fundamentally unacceptable.
There can be no Georgian-Russian joint war on terror, because those
who are called terrorists in Russia are not terrorists here.
And now let me answer your questions. There is no Ossetia south of
the Caucasus Mountain Range in existence, and there can never be any.
Russian invaders were the ones who came up with the Ossetian word to
call sections of that territory in the 19th century. And the word was
an adjective and not a noun.
It was called Ossetian District. This is what they were calling the
territories in the upper reaches of the Aragvi River and a little
area southwest of it. And another Ossetian District was the territory
north of the Caucasus Mountain Range, which used to belong to Georgia
during Georgian kings. It is the Ardon vicinity, etc.
Mainly, the Ossetians started settling on Georgian territories since
1864, when serfdom was abolished in Georgia. Georgian nobles and
princes lost their serfs but the lands remained theirs. In order to
till these lands when serf labor was no longer available, they
started inviting Ossetians from the northern slopes of the Caucasus
Mountains.
KC: But still, maybe it was a political issue instead of an agrarian
one? Let's just recall how during the same period of time in
Javakhetia [Southern Georgia] 40 thousand families of Georgian
Muslims were expelled to Turkey and Armenians were moved to these
lands later. Then some Georgian lands were inhabited by Germans,
Greeks, etc.
N.Natadze: Ossetians came to Georgia as agricultural workers. As the
ones who were given shelter. Thus, the Russian census conducted in
the end of the 19th century lists 15 thousand Ossetian families in
Eastern Georgia. All of them were doing agricultural work, but none
of them owned any pieces of land. This is how a critical agrarian
conflict was created. There was agricultural population, who had no
property or land of their own.
By using these purely agrarian tensions, the Bolsheviks organized an
armed Ossetian uprising in the northern part of central Georgia back
in 1918. It was a rebellion against Georgia, which back then was
independent. Under the guise of a national movement. But really it
was an agrarian movement of agricultural workers. It was taking
pretty brutal forms.
Georgian side took police measures against the armed uprising. But
these measures were brought to naught. After Russia invaded Georgia
in 1921, the Caucasus Bureau of the Bolsheviks decided to complete
the job and set up the South Ossetian Autonomous Region.
Even for one hour Ossetian territorial autonomy on the Georgian soil
has never existed and will never exist without the presence of
Russian regular forces. Two Soviet regiments were stationed there
back during the Soviet times. A helicopter regiment and an
engineering regiment. They were the ones who maintained control of
the situation. Right now, as a result of traitorous signature of
Shevardnadze [former Georgian president], who was nothing but a
usurper at that time - under the guise of being a chairman of an
illegal State Council (no one else had elected him), these Russian
troops are still stationed there. Then the document was signed: the
agreement on inviting the so-called 'peacekeepers' to the Tskhinvali
area in order to keep the sides separated. And these days these armed
forces are using the traitorous signature of Shevardnadze as the
pretext. They have no other grounds.
Russia has always been promoting Ossetinization of those territories.
When that administrative region was being created, Ossetians had
always been a minority. Most of the Georgian population had to leave
their lands and now they are in the position of refugees. Russia was
pursuing the same policies in Javakhetia, with the only difference
that it was being done bloodlessly. 30 thousand Armenian families
were moved to that area to replace ousted Georgian Muslims. During
the war of 1928-1929 Georgian Muslims left that seat of war. And once
the peace agreement was signed, they were not allowed to return
there.
It's been a while since Moscow has been persistently pursuing the
policies of 'Georgia without Georgians'. This line was even adopted
in the midst of the so-called Russian intellectuals, let alone
representatives of the authorities.
There was a time when even Academician Sakharov (supposedly a
democrat and a human rights activist) even admitted it. When he was
young he used to visit one of the mountaineer camps in the North
Caucasus every summer. Famous Georgian mountaineer Sandro Gvelia was
the leader of that camp. They had wonderful friendly relationship.
And all of a sudden Sandro asked Sakharov: «Why you don't like
Georgia?» And he answered: «Why, why... We do like Georgia, we just
don't like Georgians». This is the essence of the Russian policies.
As far as the present-day situation goes, it is now developing under
the pressure of objective processes. Regardless of what we do, Russia
is now vacating the South Caucasus. The West has a vital interest in
having a free access to Central Asia, which is not controlled by
Russia. If the West makes it on time, it would be good. If it
doesn't, then the World War III will certainly take place. And the
frontlines of this war will be at the Caspian Sea.
If the West manages to gain a firm foothold in the South Caucasus,
then the war will either not happen due to the absence of the
adversary, or its frontlines will be located between Central Asia and
China.
It is of vital interest to the West. Not imperial or economic
interest, but vital interest. Russia has no such interests in the
Caucasus. It only has its imperial interest. So, the interests of the
West are greater than Russia's interests are.
But Russia wants to retain some even tiny piece of territory for the
future, -- by actively using many of its agents in Georgia. Just in
case. For instance, it wants to set up the status of the Tskhinvali
[capital of South Ossetia] and Abkhaz zones in a way that these
territories could be virtually independent from Georgia and so that
Russia could be the guarantor of that status. Russia wants these time
bombs on the body of Georgia.
And now Georgia's problem is to make Russia leave without leaving
these bombs. This is what we are interested in. The West doesn't
really care about it.
KC: And how would it be possible?
N.Natadze: It depends on how loyal the Georgian government is to the
people. War or negotiations based on force is actually all the same.
There will be no result without superiority in forces.
What is our superiority in forces guaranteed by? First of all, by
proper political steps. The government of Georgia must make a clear
statement that this is not a Georgian-Ossetian war, but a
Russian-Georgian war, and that the Tskhinvali zone is now occupied by
the Russian troops. Georgian government must abolish the status of
Russians as being 'peacekeepers'. These steps will either prevent
military intervention from the North or make it least likely.
Georgia has to be so strong, so that it could make a military
intervention least likely. Georgia will not be able to defeat Russia
if Russia starts attacking Georgia's positions when using Ossetian
banners. Maybe we are weaker, but we have to overpower this form of
intervention.
KC: Is it already the issue of a new war, or is it the continuation
of the war of 1992-1993?
N.Natadze: Russian-Georgian war has not stopped ever since. The enemy
took our territories and is now occupying these lands after being
assisted by Shevardnadze, who committed high treason. Right now our
mission is to stop this invasion.
KC: President of Georgia Mikhail Saakashvili probably has started
looking at Russia more soberly. He is very close to such
formulations. The first time he started calling things by their
proper names was when he said the word aggression, etc. But so far
there is no clear and comprehensive definition of the essence of
confrontation, and nor there is a clear definition of who the enemy
of Georgia is. Nor it is clear how far the promises of the
authorities to change the mandate of 'peacekeepers' will go.
Many are also concerned about the relations between the US and Russia
on the Georgian issue. Do you think some deals may be taking place
behind Georgia's back?
N.Natadze: The decision has already been made that Russians will not
be present in the Caucasus. Russia's time in the Caucasus is up.
There is nothing that can stop this process. Concerning the US help
to Georgia. First, it is the Western factor that keeps Russia from
conducting a direct strike against Georgia.
On the second day American unofficial diplomatic elite and diplomatic
community gathered when Mr. Saakashvili made his famous statement.
They were professional diplomats. There are very influential people
among them. They had a long and productive discussion on this subject
and all of them were unanimous that it must be recorded that Russia
and Georgia are the ones fighting the war in the Tskhinvali zone and
in Abkhazia. And not Ossetians or Abkhazians with Georgians.
This approach has already been recorded in the minds of the society.
In the West public opinion is only a step away from the official
opinion. So the decision has virtually been made.
I'd like to add something else. In 93 after my strong speeches during
the negotiations on the framework agreement, I had a meeting with the
new staff of Defense and Security Committee of the Russian State Duma
[parliament]. And one of the members said, it was in May 1993, this
is what he said: «We will lose the North Caucasus, but we will have a
war with them».
I started laughing and I said, «We've been living together for three
thousand years, but we never had a war with them. So why would a war
start today?»
All of it shows that Russian political elite knows full well that it
is going to lose the North Caucasus. They know it is inevitable. They
want to stretch out this process somehow, and get something in
exchange for their surrender by the time that day comes. They
perfectly know that the war for retaining the North Caucasus under
their control has no future. And the South Caucasus for them has no
future even hundreds of times more. Politicians know about it, only
an average Johnny doesn't.
KC: In the war with Georgia Russia has been actively using the factor
of temporarily lost territories, but Georgia has a political
nightstick, which is just as strong. I mean Chechnya. Why is the
official Georgia quiet about it? Georgia is afraid to talk about
Chechnya even when it is being choked and all kinds of vile methods
are used?
N.Natadze: Your question is the central question to characterize the
situation. My answer will be very sad. The whole problem is in
Georgian government's loyalty to their state and their people. There
is nothing else I can say.
Only through its one representative in the UN Georgia can start a
storm of pressure on the Russian policies in Chechnya without
violating the legal norms even for a milligram. But that seat is not
occupied by our man.
KC: What do you think about the all-Caucasus ideas?
N.Natadze: Union of the Caucasus countries and nations is surely a
great idea. It has very promising future. Power-wise. But this power
has its limits. This is why the work in this direction must fit into
the global context, whether we want it or not.
KC: Your optimism and your faith in the help from the West are very
strong, and unfortunately, yours truly has great doubts about it.
N.Natadze: It's not my faith, this is what I know.
KC: Anyway, we are always interested to listen to you, and we have
great respect for your opinion. Thank you.
Conversation was conducted by Data Tutashkhia, Tbilisi, Georgia.
For Kavkaz-Center