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Georgian deputy defence minister interviewed on relations with Russia
Georgian State Television Channel 1, Tbilisi
24 Nov 04
Georgian Deputy Defence Minister Davit Sikharulidze has praised Russia
for agreeing to hand over to Georgia a tank repair plant in Tbilisi. He
said that it was one of the very few examples of "fruitful" military
cooperation between the two countries recently. He also said that how
soon Russia agreed to close its remaining bases in Georgia remained
"the central issue", which would determine the future of bilateral
relations. The following is the text of Aleksandre Parulava's interview
with Sikharulidze on 24 November, broadcast live by Georgian TV;
subheadings have been inserted editorially:
Tank repair plant
[Question] Russia today agreed to hand over to Georgia its tank
repair plant in Tbilisi. Our guest today is Georgian Deputy Defence
Minister Davit Sikharulidze. Thank you for coming to our studio. It
would be interesting to know how you managed to reach this agreement
at a time when Russia is refusing to honour its other commitments,
for example those relating to the closure of its bases.
[Sikharulidze] Good evening. I am pleased to say that this was one
of the few examples, if not the only recent example, of fruitful
cooperation between our delegations. This was preceded by the eighth
round of Georgian-Russian talks, Defence Minister Giorgi Baramidze's
visit to Moscow and his meetings with [Russian Defence Minister Sergey]
Ivanov and the chief of the Russian General Staff at which this issue
was agreed in principle. But, as you know, in our relations with
Russia there is often a long way to go from agreement in principle
to implementation in practice.
In general, I am pleased with this example of cooperation because both
sides have demonstrated goodwill. The Georgian side was flexible and
showed that it was very important for it to reach agreement. For its
part, the Russian side also showed goodwill, making this agreement
possible.
[Question] What about the plant itself? We understand that this
plant has served Russian forces in the Transcaucasus. Naturally,
a large part of these forces are based in Armenia. How does Russia
see its future here? Does it mean that it is preparing to withdraw
from the Transcaucasus?
[Sikharulidze] That is our dream. We want Georgia to be gradually
freed from Russia's military presence.
In the case of this plant, we hope that it is in better condition
than other installations we have received this year. There are about
15 such installations. Your film crew visited these installations and
saw that their value as military installations was not great and they
were in terrible condition. With the help of law-enforcement agencies
we have been able to monitor this place and we hope that it will not
be handed over to us asset stripped. Our team will go and inspect
the plant tomorrow.
[Question] What is the timetable for the handover of the plant?
[Sikharulidze] The process should be completed by 30 January. It is
important, however, that we have agreed on the joint protection of
this installation in the meantime.
[Question] How will this plant help Georgia's defence capability?
[Sikharulidze] It will be a very important plant for us. Repair and
servicing of all Soviet-made tanks and armoured vehicles can take place
there. As you know, most of our equipment is Soviet made. Georgia
does not have such a plant. We hope that it will soon be able to
serve our armed forces. We may also consider repair and servicing
requests from other countries.
[Question] In what financial state will you inherit this plant? We
know that this plant has some debts to the state. Will they be written
off or not?
[Sikharulidze] Under the protocol we have signed, the Russian side
will have to clear the wage debt as well as its income tax and social
liabilities, despite the fact that it is giving us this valuable plant
free of charge. There were also other liabilities but we agreed that,
if the plant was handed over to us in working condition, the Georgian
side would not demand certain payments from the Russian side. This
mainly applies to late tax payment penalties.
Closure of Russian bases
[Question] Georgia still has not signed the framework [friendship]
treaty with Russia. How soon will it be possible to sign this treaty
and will the Georgian side be able to defend its interests in this
treaty?
[Sikharulidze] I think the most important and fundamental condition
is that the Russian military bases should be removed from Georgian
territory as soon as possible. That is the central issue at all
our talks. It is the unshakeable will of the Georgian people
that they do not wish to see Russian military bases on Georgian
territory. Therefore, Russia's willingness to meet us halfway on
this issue will determine the success of this treaty and, generally,
the future of our relations.
Naturally, the entire world accepts the fundamental principle that
one country can only station its forces in another country if there
is a desire for that on the part of the latter. We have been clearly
telling Russia that there is no desire in Georgia for the stationing
of its military here, so they should do their utmost to leave Georgian
territory as soon as possible.
[Question] As deputy defence minister, what do you think about the
timescale for the closure of these bases? There is often a lot of
debate between Georgia and Russia on this issue. What would be the
optimal timescale for the Georgian side and what will be the final
decision?
[Sikharulidze] It would be hard to give an unequivocal answer to
this. This is an issue for talks between diplomats. However, I can
tell you that, technically, two months is quite sufficient for Russia
to withdraw the personnel and equipment it currently has on Georgian
territory. Two months is a realistic period.
Georgia has been very flexible on this issue and is ready to make
concessions by extending this period. However, there are limits to
Georgia's patience -
[Question] What about money? There has often been talk about how
expensive it is.
[Sikharulidze] I do not think that, for example, the withdrawal from
Vaziani base cost them a lot because there was a special fund set
up by the United States. It was a 10m [dollar] fund. As far as I can
remember - I hope I am not mistaken - it cost them 4m-5m to withdraw
from this base and this sum came from the fund.
In addition, Georgia is ready to help. We can make more
concessions. For example, we can help them cut their transport costs
as much as possible.
Russian base in Abkhazia
[Question] What about the base at Gudauta? We understand the importance
of it being closed. Can the current situation in Abkhazia speed up
the closure of this base?
[Sikharulidze] As regards Gudauta base, you know that the Russian
side undertook to close it together with Vaziani. They have
formally announced that the base has been closed, but neither we nor
international monitors and the international community can ascertain
this.
[Question] I meant that, since pro-Russian forces are being defeated
in Abkhazia, will this speed up the closure of this base?
[Sikharulidze] It is hard to tell. I would not like to link these two
issues. All I can say is that Russia should honour this obligation,
which is an obligation it has made not only to Georgia but also
to the international community. It is the failure to honour these
commitments that makes it impossible for the Adapted Conventional
Forces in Europe Treaty to come into force. That is why our partners
are not pleased with the progress of these talks.
Ukraine
[Question] Finally, I would like to ask you about the situation
in Ukraine. The position of the military is important in any
revolution. The Georgian military declared its position this time
last year. What do you think will happen in Ukraine? What will the
generals and, therefore, the army do there?
[Sikharulidze] I am a civilian, so I will allow myself to comment
on the steps the military may take. I think that the Ukrainian army
is an inalienable part of the Ukrainian people and they will never
decide to go against their own people. I hope, I am almost convinced
that that is how it will be.
Georgian State Television Channel 1, Tbilisi
24 Nov 04
Georgian Deputy Defence Minister Davit Sikharulidze has praised Russia
for agreeing to hand over to Georgia a tank repair plant in Tbilisi. He
said that it was one of the very few examples of "fruitful" military
cooperation between the two countries recently. He also said that how
soon Russia agreed to close its remaining bases in Georgia remained
"the central issue", which would determine the future of bilateral
relations. The following is the text of Aleksandre Parulava's interview
with Sikharulidze on 24 November, broadcast live by Georgian TV;
subheadings have been inserted editorially:
Tank repair plant
[Question] Russia today agreed to hand over to Georgia its tank
repair plant in Tbilisi. Our guest today is Georgian Deputy Defence
Minister Davit Sikharulidze. Thank you for coming to our studio. It
would be interesting to know how you managed to reach this agreement
at a time when Russia is refusing to honour its other commitments,
for example those relating to the closure of its bases.
[Sikharulidze] Good evening. I am pleased to say that this was one
of the few examples, if not the only recent example, of fruitful
cooperation between our delegations. This was preceded by the eighth
round of Georgian-Russian talks, Defence Minister Giorgi Baramidze's
visit to Moscow and his meetings with [Russian Defence Minister Sergey]
Ivanov and the chief of the Russian General Staff at which this issue
was agreed in principle. But, as you know, in our relations with
Russia there is often a long way to go from agreement in principle
to implementation in practice.
In general, I am pleased with this example of cooperation because both
sides have demonstrated goodwill. The Georgian side was flexible and
showed that it was very important for it to reach agreement. For its
part, the Russian side also showed goodwill, making this agreement
possible.
[Question] What about the plant itself? We understand that this
plant has served Russian forces in the Transcaucasus. Naturally,
a large part of these forces are based in Armenia. How does Russia
see its future here? Does it mean that it is preparing to withdraw
from the Transcaucasus?
[Sikharulidze] That is our dream. We want Georgia to be gradually
freed from Russia's military presence.
In the case of this plant, we hope that it is in better condition
than other installations we have received this year. There are about
15 such installations. Your film crew visited these installations and
saw that their value as military installations was not great and they
were in terrible condition. With the help of law-enforcement agencies
we have been able to monitor this place and we hope that it will not
be handed over to us asset stripped. Our team will go and inspect
the plant tomorrow.
[Question] What is the timetable for the handover of the plant?
[Sikharulidze] The process should be completed by 30 January. It is
important, however, that we have agreed on the joint protection of
this installation in the meantime.
[Question] How will this plant help Georgia's defence capability?
[Sikharulidze] It will be a very important plant for us. Repair and
servicing of all Soviet-made tanks and armoured vehicles can take place
there. As you know, most of our equipment is Soviet made. Georgia
does not have such a plant. We hope that it will soon be able to
serve our armed forces. We may also consider repair and servicing
requests from other countries.
[Question] In what financial state will you inherit this plant? We
know that this plant has some debts to the state. Will they be written
off or not?
[Sikharulidze] Under the protocol we have signed, the Russian side
will have to clear the wage debt as well as its income tax and social
liabilities, despite the fact that it is giving us this valuable plant
free of charge. There were also other liabilities but we agreed that,
if the plant was handed over to us in working condition, the Georgian
side would not demand certain payments from the Russian side. This
mainly applies to late tax payment penalties.
Closure of Russian bases
[Question] Georgia still has not signed the framework [friendship]
treaty with Russia. How soon will it be possible to sign this treaty
and will the Georgian side be able to defend its interests in this
treaty?
[Sikharulidze] I think the most important and fundamental condition
is that the Russian military bases should be removed from Georgian
territory as soon as possible. That is the central issue at all
our talks. It is the unshakeable will of the Georgian people
that they do not wish to see Russian military bases on Georgian
territory. Therefore, Russia's willingness to meet us halfway on
this issue will determine the success of this treaty and, generally,
the future of our relations.
Naturally, the entire world accepts the fundamental principle that
one country can only station its forces in another country if there
is a desire for that on the part of the latter. We have been clearly
telling Russia that there is no desire in Georgia for the stationing
of its military here, so they should do their utmost to leave Georgian
territory as soon as possible.
[Question] As deputy defence minister, what do you think about the
timescale for the closure of these bases? There is often a lot of
debate between Georgia and Russia on this issue. What would be the
optimal timescale for the Georgian side and what will be the final
decision?
[Sikharulidze] It would be hard to give an unequivocal answer to
this. This is an issue for talks between diplomats. However, I can
tell you that, technically, two months is quite sufficient for Russia
to withdraw the personnel and equipment it currently has on Georgian
territory. Two months is a realistic period.
Georgia has been very flexible on this issue and is ready to make
concessions by extending this period. However, there are limits to
Georgia's patience -
[Question] What about money? There has often been talk about how
expensive it is.
[Sikharulidze] I do not think that, for example, the withdrawal from
Vaziani base cost them a lot because there was a special fund set
up by the United States. It was a 10m [dollar] fund. As far as I can
remember - I hope I am not mistaken - it cost them 4m-5m to withdraw
from this base and this sum came from the fund.
In addition, Georgia is ready to help. We can make more
concessions. For example, we can help them cut their transport costs
as much as possible.
Russian base in Abkhazia
[Question] What about the base at Gudauta? We understand the importance
of it being closed. Can the current situation in Abkhazia speed up
the closure of this base?
[Sikharulidze] As regards Gudauta base, you know that the Russian
side undertook to close it together with Vaziani. They have
formally announced that the base has been closed, but neither we nor
international monitors and the international community can ascertain
this.
[Question] I meant that, since pro-Russian forces are being defeated
in Abkhazia, will this speed up the closure of this base?
[Sikharulidze] It is hard to tell. I would not like to link these two
issues. All I can say is that Russia should honour this obligation,
which is an obligation it has made not only to Georgia but also
to the international community. It is the failure to honour these
commitments that makes it impossible for the Adapted Conventional
Forces in Europe Treaty to come into force. That is why our partners
are not pleased with the progress of these talks.
Ukraine
[Question] Finally, I would like to ask you about the situation
in Ukraine. The position of the military is important in any
revolution. The Georgian military declared its position this time
last year. What do you think will happen in Ukraine? What will the
generals and, therefore, the army do there?
[Sikharulidze] I am a civilian, so I will allow myself to comment
on the steps the military may take. I think that the Ukrainian army
is an inalienable part of the Ukrainian people and they will never
decide to go against their own people. I hope, I am almost convinced
that that is how it will be.