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National Public Radio (NPR)
SHOW: Talk of the Nation 3:00 AM EST NPR
July 4, 2005 Monday
Nino Burzhanadze discusses the Rose Revolution in the former Soviet
republic of Georgia and the current state of the country
ANCHORS: LYNN NEARY
LYNN NEARY, host:
It's been more than 200 years since American revolutionaries rose up
in protest against their rulers and replaced them with a new
government. For the former Soviet republic of Georgia, it's been less
than two. In what is known as the Rose Revolution, protesters in the
capital city, Tblisi, carried roses as they stormed the Parliament
and drove Edward Shevardnadze, a president whom they blamed for
corruption and economic failure. He resigned, and now Georgia is
working to rebuild its economy and its democracy.
We are now joined in Studio 3A by one of the leaders of the
revolution, Nino Burzhanadze. She is now the speaker of the Georgian
Parliament.
Thanks so much for being with us.
Ms. NINO BURZHANADZE (Speaker of the Georgian Parliament): Thank you.
It's a pleasure.
NEARY: If you have any questions about the Georgian revolution or
what's going on in that country today, give us a call at (800)
989-TALK; that's (800) 989-8255.
Well, it's very exciting to have you here on our Fourth of July. Of
course, our American Revolution was a long and costly war. Tell us a
little bit about the Rose Revolution. Very different from our own
revolution, wasn't it?
Ms. BURZHANADZE: Thank you. First of all, I would like to use this
opportunity and to congratulate American people, our friendly
American people, with this national day of independence. It's really
very important because your country is really fighting for democracy
in the whole world. And I would like and Georgian people would want
to wish you all, all of you, a success and peace and all the best.
About our revolution, I'm really very proud the Georgian people
really fighted for democracy and for their rights to defend their
choice, because Georgia really is a former Soviet republic, which the
second time being independent from '91 and during the 10, 12 years of
independence, we really had a lot of problems and challenges, as
there was no electricities. The level of living in the country was
really very bad, and people had a lot of social and economic
problems. But we had two unsolved conflicts in our territory, in
Abkhazia and South Ossetia. We had very bad relations with Russia. We
had civil war during those 10 years. But nevertheless, people tried
to keep silent; people were very patient; they're trying to keep
stability in the country and never entered into the street.
But in 2003, when they were waiting for free and fair elections just
to find solution and to change corrupted government which was not
able to solve many problems of our people. When people saw that
government and unfortunately President Shevardnadze, they don't want
to pay attention on people's voice. They don't care what people are
saying about--they don't care about free and fair elections and real
democracy in the country. One hundred thousand people went in front
of the Parliament, were standing during three weeks, day and night,
under rainy and very cold weather, in front of the majority in
Parliament, defended their right to have free and fair election in
the country. That was why revolution happened.
NEARY: Yeah. Revolution is an exciting kind of thing to happen, but
then you become a member of the government; you have to rule the
country. That's a difficult transition; it's a difficult change.
Ms. BURZHANADZE: I was--even before revolution for two years, I was
speaker of the Georgia Parliament, elected from opposition. And being
the speaker of the Parliament, I was at the same time in opposition
with President Shevardnadze, which was really quite difficult. But of
course to be now a member of governmental party and to be support of
president and to be--to ruling the country after revolution is really
very serious problem and challenges because people supported us; they
had huge expectations that everything will be solved in very short
period of time. And of course, it's really very serious obligation
not to disappoint these people.
And President Saakashvili, myself and all of us were trying to do our
best not to disappoint these hundreds of thousand people who were
fighting with roses but nevertheless for democracy. We really don't
want to disappoint our Western friends and friends in United States,
and we have to do too many things. And we are doing real a lot. We
are trying--we are fighting against corruption, and I can say that
during these two years--of course, we can't say that there is no
corruption anymore in Georgia, but corruption is not exist as
institution anymore. We are making lot of reforms to strengths in
civil society, to strengths in democratic institutions, to strengths
in independent judiciary, to improving Western climate in the
country, but we still need time.
NEARY: What was the hardest challenge that you faced at the end of
the revolution?
Ms. BURZHANADZE: First of all, it was the ability to keep stability
in the country, because Georgia, located in very difficult and
complicated region, too many forces, let's say, who really didn't
want to have Georgia a successful example of fighting for democracy.
And it was really quite difficult to keep stability. But fortunately,
people, government, president, we--all together, we did a lot and
keep stability in the country.
NEARY: And the situation now is stable?
Ms. BURZHANADZE: Situation is now absolutely stable, but the main
problem is that we still have two unsolved conflicts on our
territories. And when you have 500 million population and 300,000
refugees, it's very difficult to speak about stability.
NEARY: I'm talking with Nino Burzhanadze. She is the house speaker
for the Georgian Parliament. If you have any questions for her about
the situation in Georgia in the years since the revolution, give us a
call; we're at (800) 989-TALK; that's (800) 989-8255.
And you're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
And we're going to take a call now from--I think it's John, and he's
calling from California, from San Francisco. Hi, John.
JOHN (Caller): Hello, and congratulations to the Georgian people and
to the speaker. Here's my question. Since the time of Gamsakhurdia,
the Armenians of Georgia, who comprise about 10 percent, have
complained of government oppression against their religion, their
religious sites and against them as a people. What is the new
government doing to remedy these problems, including the extreme
poverty in Javak?
Ms. BURZHANADZE: Thank you for this question. Concerning Armenian
population, we are really trying now to solve this problem. I would
like to thank American government because of Millennium Challenge
Account Corporation, we decided to have very serious project in
Javakheti region to improve infrastructure, what gives possibility to
these people to be integrated in Georgian society much better. We
have very friendly relations with Armenia as a state, and we have
very good relations with Armenian people themself. But they really
have problems, but the same problems and in other regions. So--but
nevertheless, we tried to put Armenia region in the first priority to
help to these people to be involved in Georgian reality and Georgian
state building processes more seriously. And I hope that in nearest
future we will have full success in this region.
NEARY: Does that answer your question, John? Yeah, I think so. Thanks
very much.
Are Armenians represented in this government?
Ms. BURZHANADZE: Yes, of course, and in the Parliament, too.
NEARY: Let's take another call, then, from Kemp(ph) in Raleigh, North
Carolina. Hi, Kemp.
KEMP (Caller): Good afternoon.
NEARY: Good afternoon.
KEMP: My question is: How do you see the United States as an example
as you're trying to promote democracy in Georgia? We're, of course,
celebrating our Independence Day today, and I'm curious how we are
setting a good example for your country. Thank you.
Ms. BURZHANADZE: Thank you very much for this question. First of all,
I really don't want to miss this opportunity and to thank President
Bush for his wonderful and fantastic visit in Georgia. It was really
very important for us, and President Saakashvili mentioned during
President Bush's visit that we had a lot of guests during our
history, but it was the first time when a leader of a superpower was
in Georgia as a friend who really supported Georgian people and
continued to stay support. And that was why people were so happy. One
hundred fifty thousand people came to Independence Square just to
welcome President Bush, because these people have the feelings that
President Bush and the American people, you have a country who really
tried to help other countries, even small countries like Georgia, to
protect their rights, to build real democracy.
You know why it's so important for us to have very close relations
with United States. Some of our Russian colleagues don't understand
this. Even yesterday during ...(unintelligible) parliamentary
assembly, a wise speaker of Russian state Duma called Georgia as
gubernia who is under influence of United States. But these persons
and the persons like her don't understand that our relations are
based on common values. These values are human rights; these values
are building democracy, strong state institutions.
And one very good example--you asked about example--you know, until
now, all success which we achieved in Georgia depended a lot from the
leadership from presidents, from other leaders, because state
institutions in the country were really very weak. And one of the
mistakes of former President Shevardnadze was that he didn't
strengthen state institutions, and everything depended from him. And
when he made one mistake or two mistakes and when people surrounding
him were making mistakes, it created serious problem for the country.
We have good example in United States when you are trying not to be
dependent only from the leadership, which is always very important,
but you are trying really to strengthen state institutions, to
strengthen government, Parliament, civil society, NGOs, free press.
This is grat examples for us.
NEARY: Briefly--we have less than a minute--I'm just curious; you're
the speaker of--the house speaker for Parliament. Do you have any
ambition to become president or prime minister yourself?
Ms. BURZHANADZE: No, concerning prime minister, first of all, I would
like to say that I have been already president as a president of
Georgia. I served two months after revolution.
NEARY: Oh, that's right.
Ms. BURZHANADZE: And, you know, I can say that it was most difficult
period of time in my life, even more difficult than during
revolution. Concerning prime minister, of course not. I think I have
serious obligations to strengthen Parliament.
NEARY: All right. Thanks so much for being with us.
Ms. BURZHANADZE: Thank you.
NEARY: We're out of time. Nino Burzhanadze is the house speaker for
the Georgian Parliament. She is with us today in Studio 3A.
Thanks so much for being with us.
This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Lynn Neary.
SHOW: Talk of the Nation 3:00 AM EST NPR
July 4, 2005 Monday
Nino Burzhanadze discusses the Rose Revolution in the former Soviet
republic of Georgia and the current state of the country
ANCHORS: LYNN NEARY
LYNN NEARY, host:
It's been more than 200 years since American revolutionaries rose up
in protest against their rulers and replaced them with a new
government. For the former Soviet republic of Georgia, it's been less
than two. In what is known as the Rose Revolution, protesters in the
capital city, Tblisi, carried roses as they stormed the Parliament
and drove Edward Shevardnadze, a president whom they blamed for
corruption and economic failure. He resigned, and now Georgia is
working to rebuild its economy and its democracy.
We are now joined in Studio 3A by one of the leaders of the
revolution, Nino Burzhanadze. She is now the speaker of the Georgian
Parliament.
Thanks so much for being with us.
Ms. NINO BURZHANADZE (Speaker of the Georgian Parliament): Thank you.
It's a pleasure.
NEARY: If you have any questions about the Georgian revolution or
what's going on in that country today, give us a call at (800)
989-TALK; that's (800) 989-8255.
Well, it's very exciting to have you here on our Fourth of July. Of
course, our American Revolution was a long and costly war. Tell us a
little bit about the Rose Revolution. Very different from our own
revolution, wasn't it?
Ms. BURZHANADZE: Thank you. First of all, I would like to use this
opportunity and to congratulate American people, our friendly
American people, with this national day of independence. It's really
very important because your country is really fighting for democracy
in the whole world. And I would like and Georgian people would want
to wish you all, all of you, a success and peace and all the best.
About our revolution, I'm really very proud the Georgian people
really fighted for democracy and for their rights to defend their
choice, because Georgia really is a former Soviet republic, which the
second time being independent from '91 and during the 10, 12 years of
independence, we really had a lot of problems and challenges, as
there was no electricities. The level of living in the country was
really very bad, and people had a lot of social and economic
problems. But we had two unsolved conflicts in our territory, in
Abkhazia and South Ossetia. We had very bad relations with Russia. We
had civil war during those 10 years. But nevertheless, people tried
to keep silent; people were very patient; they're trying to keep
stability in the country and never entered into the street.
But in 2003, when they were waiting for free and fair elections just
to find solution and to change corrupted government which was not
able to solve many problems of our people. When people saw that
government and unfortunately President Shevardnadze, they don't want
to pay attention on people's voice. They don't care what people are
saying about--they don't care about free and fair elections and real
democracy in the country. One hundred thousand people went in front
of the Parliament, were standing during three weeks, day and night,
under rainy and very cold weather, in front of the majority in
Parliament, defended their right to have free and fair election in
the country. That was why revolution happened.
NEARY: Yeah. Revolution is an exciting kind of thing to happen, but
then you become a member of the government; you have to rule the
country. That's a difficult transition; it's a difficult change.
Ms. BURZHANADZE: I was--even before revolution for two years, I was
speaker of the Georgia Parliament, elected from opposition. And being
the speaker of the Parliament, I was at the same time in opposition
with President Shevardnadze, which was really quite difficult. But of
course to be now a member of governmental party and to be support of
president and to be--to ruling the country after revolution is really
very serious problem and challenges because people supported us; they
had huge expectations that everything will be solved in very short
period of time. And of course, it's really very serious obligation
not to disappoint these people.
And President Saakashvili, myself and all of us were trying to do our
best not to disappoint these hundreds of thousand people who were
fighting with roses but nevertheless for democracy. We really don't
want to disappoint our Western friends and friends in United States,
and we have to do too many things. And we are doing real a lot. We
are trying--we are fighting against corruption, and I can say that
during these two years--of course, we can't say that there is no
corruption anymore in Georgia, but corruption is not exist as
institution anymore. We are making lot of reforms to strengths in
civil society, to strengths in democratic institutions, to strengths
in independent judiciary, to improving Western climate in the
country, but we still need time.
NEARY: What was the hardest challenge that you faced at the end of
the revolution?
Ms. BURZHANADZE: First of all, it was the ability to keep stability
in the country, because Georgia, located in very difficult and
complicated region, too many forces, let's say, who really didn't
want to have Georgia a successful example of fighting for democracy.
And it was really quite difficult to keep stability. But fortunately,
people, government, president, we--all together, we did a lot and
keep stability in the country.
NEARY: And the situation now is stable?
Ms. BURZHANADZE: Situation is now absolutely stable, but the main
problem is that we still have two unsolved conflicts on our
territories. And when you have 500 million population and 300,000
refugees, it's very difficult to speak about stability.
NEARY: I'm talking with Nino Burzhanadze. She is the house speaker
for the Georgian Parliament. If you have any questions for her about
the situation in Georgia in the years since the revolution, give us a
call; we're at (800) 989-TALK; that's (800) 989-8255.
And you're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
And we're going to take a call now from--I think it's John, and he's
calling from California, from San Francisco. Hi, John.
JOHN (Caller): Hello, and congratulations to the Georgian people and
to the speaker. Here's my question. Since the time of Gamsakhurdia,
the Armenians of Georgia, who comprise about 10 percent, have
complained of government oppression against their religion, their
religious sites and against them as a people. What is the new
government doing to remedy these problems, including the extreme
poverty in Javak?
Ms. BURZHANADZE: Thank you for this question. Concerning Armenian
population, we are really trying now to solve this problem. I would
like to thank American government because of Millennium Challenge
Account Corporation, we decided to have very serious project in
Javakheti region to improve infrastructure, what gives possibility to
these people to be integrated in Georgian society much better. We
have very friendly relations with Armenia as a state, and we have
very good relations with Armenian people themself. But they really
have problems, but the same problems and in other regions. So--but
nevertheless, we tried to put Armenia region in the first priority to
help to these people to be involved in Georgian reality and Georgian
state building processes more seriously. And I hope that in nearest
future we will have full success in this region.
NEARY: Does that answer your question, John? Yeah, I think so. Thanks
very much.
Are Armenians represented in this government?
Ms. BURZHANADZE: Yes, of course, and in the Parliament, too.
NEARY: Let's take another call, then, from Kemp(ph) in Raleigh, North
Carolina. Hi, Kemp.
KEMP (Caller): Good afternoon.
NEARY: Good afternoon.
KEMP: My question is: How do you see the United States as an example
as you're trying to promote democracy in Georgia? We're, of course,
celebrating our Independence Day today, and I'm curious how we are
setting a good example for your country. Thank you.
Ms. BURZHANADZE: Thank you very much for this question. First of all,
I really don't want to miss this opportunity and to thank President
Bush for his wonderful and fantastic visit in Georgia. It was really
very important for us, and President Saakashvili mentioned during
President Bush's visit that we had a lot of guests during our
history, but it was the first time when a leader of a superpower was
in Georgia as a friend who really supported Georgian people and
continued to stay support. And that was why people were so happy. One
hundred fifty thousand people came to Independence Square just to
welcome President Bush, because these people have the feelings that
President Bush and the American people, you have a country who really
tried to help other countries, even small countries like Georgia, to
protect their rights, to build real democracy.
You know why it's so important for us to have very close relations
with United States. Some of our Russian colleagues don't understand
this. Even yesterday during ...(unintelligible) parliamentary
assembly, a wise speaker of Russian state Duma called Georgia as
gubernia who is under influence of United States. But these persons
and the persons like her don't understand that our relations are
based on common values. These values are human rights; these values
are building democracy, strong state institutions.
And one very good example--you asked about example--you know, until
now, all success which we achieved in Georgia depended a lot from the
leadership from presidents, from other leaders, because state
institutions in the country were really very weak. And one of the
mistakes of former President Shevardnadze was that he didn't
strengthen state institutions, and everything depended from him. And
when he made one mistake or two mistakes and when people surrounding
him were making mistakes, it created serious problem for the country.
We have good example in United States when you are trying not to be
dependent only from the leadership, which is always very important,
but you are trying really to strengthen state institutions, to
strengthen government, Parliament, civil society, NGOs, free press.
This is grat examples for us.
NEARY: Briefly--we have less than a minute--I'm just curious; you're
the speaker of--the house speaker for Parliament. Do you have any
ambition to become president or prime minister yourself?
Ms. BURZHANADZE: No, concerning prime minister, first of all, I would
like to say that I have been already president as a president of
Georgia. I served two months after revolution.
NEARY: Oh, that's right.
Ms. BURZHANADZE: And, you know, I can say that it was most difficult
period of time in my life, even more difficult than during
revolution. Concerning prime minister, of course not. I think I have
serious obligations to strengthen Parliament.
NEARY: All right. Thanks so much for being with us.
Ms. BURZHANADZE: Thank you.
NEARY: We're out of time. Nino Burzhanadze is the house speaker for
the Georgian Parliament. She is with us today in Studio 3A.
Thanks so much for being with us.
This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Lynn Neary.