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The Messenger, Georgia
May 10 2005
Paving a road toward "historical justice"
In an interview with The Messenger, State Minister for Conflict
Resolution Goga Khaindrava says Georgia needs international funding
and thorough studies for repatriation of deported families
By Anna Arzanova
State Minister for Conflict
Resolution Goga Khaindrava
The origin and even the name of Meskhetians is almost as
controversial as the issue of their repatriation: are they Meskhetian
Muslims or Meskhetian Turks? But what is not debated is that on
November 15, 1944, 125,000 Muslim Meskhetians were deported from the
southern Georgian region of Meskheti to Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and
Kyrgyzstan, and in 1999, upon joining the Council of Europe, Georgia
committed itself to repatriate the deported Meskhetians before 2012.
Georgia has to adopt a law on the return of Meskhetians according to
the commitment undertaken by the Georgian authorities as possible,
and last week The Messenger met with the man responsible for
overseeing the repatriation of the Meskhetians, State Minister for
Conflict Resolution Goga Khaindrava.
Khaindrava stressed that there is no such nationality as Meskhetian
Turks. "Meskhetians are Meskhetians and Turks are Turks. There are
Muslim Meskhetians, mostly of ethnic Georgian origin, who follow the
Islamic faith. That is why the term which has been established -
'Meskhetian Turks' is a term of Soviet propaganda and is incorrect,"
he said, adding that we cannot call people French-Chinese or
Australian-Italian.
According to the minister, this terminology comes from the lack of
knowledge of the population on this issue, because Turks and
Meskhetians are two separate concepts.
In March, President Saakashvili appointed Khaindrava to head a
government commission to deal with the repatriation of the
Meskhetians. As for the short-term and long-term plans of Meskhetian
repatriation, Khaindrava said that first of all the state structure
should be created to work on this issue.
"A secretariat, budget as well as an information bank should be
created. We need an information bank to know everything about these
people [who were deported]. We are going to draw two maps,
figuratively of course," the minister said, adding that one map is
necessary for data about where these people now live, how many of
these people there are and what attitude the people of the country in
which they live have towards them.
According to him, the second map should concern Georgia and its own
demographics. Khaindrava said the view of the government is that
Muslim Meskhetians are a large group of Georgians who were forced to
leave their homeland and seek shelter abroad. The state minister
added that the current day direction of the country is that Georgia
is going to repatriate all Georgians back to their native land and at
least create all the conditions necessary to bring these people back.
"That is why we are interested in what possibilities are in Georgia,
where it is possible to settle all these people who wish to return to
Georgia. It does not matter these people are Muhammadan Meskhetians
or Muhammadan Fereidans," Khaindrava stressed in a reference to the
Georgian community in Iran.
Khaindrava underlined that lots of work must be done with
international donors and that they should clarify the list of the
countries that wish to take part in this issue. The minister noted
that according to their data at the present time, the total number of
Meskhetians amounts 250,000-300,000 people.
"However, we do not know who is ready to move, for whom this is an
immediate matter and for whom it is just good idea. A lot of
information needs to be gathered and lots of work should be done on
this issue," he said, adding that now they are dealing with
organizational issues.
When asked what is the government's timeline for this process given
that the Council of Europe's statement calls for the process of
repatriating the Meskhetians to start immediately and finish by 2011,
Khaindrava does not think that timelines are the most important
matter in this instance.
The minister thinks that the most important thing is the approach to
this issue and the decision of Georgian society as well as the
government. "I think that historic justice should be restored and
those people, for whom Georgia is their native land and who were
forced to leave Georgia should be allowed back home," he said.
Khaindrava believes that the decision should be made first of all by
the entire Georgian society, "so that this process to be settled
calmly and in a civilized way, as it befits our country."
Though it is impossible, he says, to say in what timeline this will
take place, because there is a specific agreement between the Council
of Europe and Georgia, the Georgian government took responsibility
for this issue upon itself.
"The talk in this agreement is about 2011, but I think first of all
we are responsible before our predecessors, our conscience and God
and then before the Council of Europe and international
organizations," said Khaindrava.
Asked how the current government will finance the repatriation of the
Meskhetians, when the previous government said at the time that it
had neither money nor the ability to launch this process, Khaindrava
stated that the previous government lacked all the necessities
"because it pocketed all foreign aid for its own interests."
"So, I do not think that the matter of what the previous government
did and said is of any relevance today," he noted.
Commenting on the financing of the repatriation, the minister noted
that 300,000 people is eight percent of the Georgian population.
According to him, everybody should understand that this process is
rather laborious and "it is natural that this process needs finances,
because this is not only a matter of returning these people to
Georgia."
Khaindrava stressed that in order for these people to return, the
country needs to improve infrastructure and create other
opportunities necessary for good living conditions.
"These people need houses, schools as well as working places. This is
a very difficult process. The attitude to this process has been
superficial until now, it was more in the sphere of propaganda than
in the sphere of real activity," Khaindrava stressed.
He thinks that serious work should be done to present a real picture
of what kind of problems exist, what its effects are, what the
government can do on this issue in reality and how long the process
will last.
Finding means to fund a solution
When asked what Georgia needs from international organizations,
Khaindrava unambiguously said: "Money, of course. What will Georgia
need from international donors? Of course, assistance for all
possible conditions and minimum infrastructure to be created for
these people to be able to live in their new home."
The minister said that there are rather serious problems in Georgia,
including internally displaced persons (IDPs) from Abkhazia and South
Ossetia, who became refugees in their own country.
"We cannot solve any problem at the expense of each other's
interests," he said, "The attitude toward the IDPs, who were forced
to abandon their homes in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, should be
balanced with the other IDPs, but simultaneously, the repatriation of
externally displaced persons should be implemented as well."
Khaindrava expressed his hope that Georgia will find the full support
of its European as well as American partners if it expresses its wish
to participate in this process. "I can tell you that foreign donors
are eager to help. This must be implemented," he added.
As for the possibility of ethnic conflict in the case of Meskhetians'
repatriation to Georgia, Khaindrava said that he couldn't understand
why this issue should cause ethnic conflict.
"I think that the issue of the ethnic conflict is absolutely
groundless," he said, though he admitted that there would be certain
dissatisfaction with this process along with others, but more often
"political speculation as well as provocation from the side of
Georgia's enemies will also take place in this issue."
Khaindrava said that there also is concern on the part of the
Armenian population that lives in Samtskhe-Javakheti region. This
concern has existed for ages, but there is no reason for any
Turkish-Armenian conflict on Georgian territory, he argues.
"Maybe there is some concern, but concern does not mean that this
issue should not be solved and the process will not be implemented.
We foresee that there are such kinds of opinions and proceeding from
this, our policy will be very tactful and delicate so that no one
feels in danger," the minister said.
Khaindrava explained that nobody intends to repatriate these people
at the expense of other people and that nobody will demand the
families to abandon their old houses. Khaindrava assured the
government will be able to manage this process to the benefit of all
the people.
He promised that they would make decisions that will satisfy and calm
down the local population, as well as the repatriated Meskhetians,
"because first of all, fairness should be the ground for the
settlement of this problem."
"I think that the people in the regions should not be concerned on
this issue. It will not be difficult for me to explain everything to
them," he noted.
Georgia's other conflicts
As State Minister for Conflict Resolution, Khaindrava also spoke
about the achievements over the last year in the efforts to settle
the Abkhaz and South Ossetian conflicts. According to him, these were
frozen issues which have already melted as a result of very intensive
negotiations.
"We are holding very serious and important meetings concerning these
conflicts. The issue of the Tskhinvali region was also discussed at
the meeting of former Prime Minister Zurab Zhvania and president of
the self-proclaimed republic of South Ossetia Eduard Kokoiti," said
the minister.
As for Abkhazia, Khaindrava said that the peace process and
negotiations between Georgia and Abkhazia stopped during the reign of
Raul Khadjimba as prime minister of de facto Abkhazia and "now we
returned to the table of negotiations."
Khaindrava highlighted recent meetings in Geneva, Italy as well as
Great Britain, saying that the negotiations have a rather "intense
character."
"We think that from this standpoint much progress has already been
achieved, though the real result will be reflected in people's lives.
This is the most fundamental task and it has not been achieved yet,"
he said.
He expressed his hope that in the near future the concrete results
and realization of those agreements that exist between the sides will
take place and that they will have the possibility to speak about
certain progress in a concrete sphere that was achieved this year as
a result of the work implemented.
He said that the negotiation process is a very difficult one and that
there are lots of conflicts all over the world. "World experience
shows us that such issues cannot be solved quickly, within days and
weeks. The most important is that the process is underway and that
number of the countries and organizations involved has increased.
This issue practically became of an international importance and
those issues which have not been even mentioned, are now on the
agenda," he said.
"It is very hard to return a country which used to live without any
law into the sphere of laws, especially when there are enclaves on
that territory, where there exists a special and different attitude
toward the law," Khaindrava said.
Khaindrava also expressed his optimism that the conflicts will be
resolved in near future.
"The fact that this difficult process is intensively underway means
that the groundwork has been laid for us to achieve good and positive
results. However, I have no doubt that we will achieve results in the
future, because intense work and dialogue is taking place in this
direction in our government as well as in our society," he said,
concluding that this gives the Georgian government the hope "that we
will overcome these difficulties."
May 10 2005
Paving a road toward "historical justice"
In an interview with The Messenger, State Minister for Conflict
Resolution Goga Khaindrava says Georgia needs international funding
and thorough studies for repatriation of deported families
By Anna Arzanova
State Minister for Conflict
Resolution Goga Khaindrava
The origin and even the name of Meskhetians is almost as
controversial as the issue of their repatriation: are they Meskhetian
Muslims or Meskhetian Turks? But what is not debated is that on
November 15, 1944, 125,000 Muslim Meskhetians were deported from the
southern Georgian region of Meskheti to Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and
Kyrgyzstan, and in 1999, upon joining the Council of Europe, Georgia
committed itself to repatriate the deported Meskhetians before 2012.
Georgia has to adopt a law on the return of Meskhetians according to
the commitment undertaken by the Georgian authorities as possible,
and last week The Messenger met with the man responsible for
overseeing the repatriation of the Meskhetians, State Minister for
Conflict Resolution Goga Khaindrava.
Khaindrava stressed that there is no such nationality as Meskhetian
Turks. "Meskhetians are Meskhetians and Turks are Turks. There are
Muslim Meskhetians, mostly of ethnic Georgian origin, who follow the
Islamic faith. That is why the term which has been established -
'Meskhetian Turks' is a term of Soviet propaganda and is incorrect,"
he said, adding that we cannot call people French-Chinese or
Australian-Italian.
According to the minister, this terminology comes from the lack of
knowledge of the population on this issue, because Turks and
Meskhetians are two separate concepts.
In March, President Saakashvili appointed Khaindrava to head a
government commission to deal with the repatriation of the
Meskhetians. As for the short-term and long-term plans of Meskhetian
repatriation, Khaindrava said that first of all the state structure
should be created to work on this issue.
"A secretariat, budget as well as an information bank should be
created. We need an information bank to know everything about these
people [who were deported]. We are going to draw two maps,
figuratively of course," the minister said, adding that one map is
necessary for data about where these people now live, how many of
these people there are and what attitude the people of the country in
which they live have towards them.
According to him, the second map should concern Georgia and its own
demographics. Khaindrava said the view of the government is that
Muslim Meskhetians are a large group of Georgians who were forced to
leave their homeland and seek shelter abroad. The state minister
added that the current day direction of the country is that Georgia
is going to repatriate all Georgians back to their native land and at
least create all the conditions necessary to bring these people back.
"That is why we are interested in what possibilities are in Georgia,
where it is possible to settle all these people who wish to return to
Georgia. It does not matter these people are Muhammadan Meskhetians
or Muhammadan Fereidans," Khaindrava stressed in a reference to the
Georgian community in Iran.
Khaindrava underlined that lots of work must be done with
international donors and that they should clarify the list of the
countries that wish to take part in this issue. The minister noted
that according to their data at the present time, the total number of
Meskhetians amounts 250,000-300,000 people.
"However, we do not know who is ready to move, for whom this is an
immediate matter and for whom it is just good idea. A lot of
information needs to be gathered and lots of work should be done on
this issue," he said, adding that now they are dealing with
organizational issues.
When asked what is the government's timeline for this process given
that the Council of Europe's statement calls for the process of
repatriating the Meskhetians to start immediately and finish by 2011,
Khaindrava does not think that timelines are the most important
matter in this instance.
The minister thinks that the most important thing is the approach to
this issue and the decision of Georgian society as well as the
government. "I think that historic justice should be restored and
those people, for whom Georgia is their native land and who were
forced to leave Georgia should be allowed back home," he said.
Khaindrava believes that the decision should be made first of all by
the entire Georgian society, "so that this process to be settled
calmly and in a civilized way, as it befits our country."
Though it is impossible, he says, to say in what timeline this will
take place, because there is a specific agreement between the Council
of Europe and Georgia, the Georgian government took responsibility
for this issue upon itself.
"The talk in this agreement is about 2011, but I think first of all
we are responsible before our predecessors, our conscience and God
and then before the Council of Europe and international
organizations," said Khaindrava.
Asked how the current government will finance the repatriation of the
Meskhetians, when the previous government said at the time that it
had neither money nor the ability to launch this process, Khaindrava
stated that the previous government lacked all the necessities
"because it pocketed all foreign aid for its own interests."
"So, I do not think that the matter of what the previous government
did and said is of any relevance today," he noted.
Commenting on the financing of the repatriation, the minister noted
that 300,000 people is eight percent of the Georgian population.
According to him, everybody should understand that this process is
rather laborious and "it is natural that this process needs finances,
because this is not only a matter of returning these people to
Georgia."
Khaindrava stressed that in order for these people to return, the
country needs to improve infrastructure and create other
opportunities necessary for good living conditions.
"These people need houses, schools as well as working places. This is
a very difficult process. The attitude to this process has been
superficial until now, it was more in the sphere of propaganda than
in the sphere of real activity," Khaindrava stressed.
He thinks that serious work should be done to present a real picture
of what kind of problems exist, what its effects are, what the
government can do on this issue in reality and how long the process
will last.
Finding means to fund a solution
When asked what Georgia needs from international organizations,
Khaindrava unambiguously said: "Money, of course. What will Georgia
need from international donors? Of course, assistance for all
possible conditions and minimum infrastructure to be created for
these people to be able to live in their new home."
The minister said that there are rather serious problems in Georgia,
including internally displaced persons (IDPs) from Abkhazia and South
Ossetia, who became refugees in their own country.
"We cannot solve any problem at the expense of each other's
interests," he said, "The attitude toward the IDPs, who were forced
to abandon their homes in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, should be
balanced with the other IDPs, but simultaneously, the repatriation of
externally displaced persons should be implemented as well."
Khaindrava expressed his hope that Georgia will find the full support
of its European as well as American partners if it expresses its wish
to participate in this process. "I can tell you that foreign donors
are eager to help. This must be implemented," he added.
As for the possibility of ethnic conflict in the case of Meskhetians'
repatriation to Georgia, Khaindrava said that he couldn't understand
why this issue should cause ethnic conflict.
"I think that the issue of the ethnic conflict is absolutely
groundless," he said, though he admitted that there would be certain
dissatisfaction with this process along with others, but more often
"political speculation as well as provocation from the side of
Georgia's enemies will also take place in this issue."
Khaindrava said that there also is concern on the part of the
Armenian population that lives in Samtskhe-Javakheti region. This
concern has existed for ages, but there is no reason for any
Turkish-Armenian conflict on Georgian territory, he argues.
"Maybe there is some concern, but concern does not mean that this
issue should not be solved and the process will not be implemented.
We foresee that there are such kinds of opinions and proceeding from
this, our policy will be very tactful and delicate so that no one
feels in danger," the minister said.
Khaindrava explained that nobody intends to repatriate these people
at the expense of other people and that nobody will demand the
families to abandon their old houses. Khaindrava assured the
government will be able to manage this process to the benefit of all
the people.
He promised that they would make decisions that will satisfy and calm
down the local population, as well as the repatriated Meskhetians,
"because first of all, fairness should be the ground for the
settlement of this problem."
"I think that the people in the regions should not be concerned on
this issue. It will not be difficult for me to explain everything to
them," he noted.
Georgia's other conflicts
As State Minister for Conflict Resolution, Khaindrava also spoke
about the achievements over the last year in the efforts to settle
the Abkhaz and South Ossetian conflicts. According to him, these were
frozen issues which have already melted as a result of very intensive
negotiations.
"We are holding very serious and important meetings concerning these
conflicts. The issue of the Tskhinvali region was also discussed at
the meeting of former Prime Minister Zurab Zhvania and president of
the self-proclaimed republic of South Ossetia Eduard Kokoiti," said
the minister.
As for Abkhazia, Khaindrava said that the peace process and
negotiations between Georgia and Abkhazia stopped during the reign of
Raul Khadjimba as prime minister of de facto Abkhazia and "now we
returned to the table of negotiations."
Khaindrava highlighted recent meetings in Geneva, Italy as well as
Great Britain, saying that the negotiations have a rather "intense
character."
"We think that from this standpoint much progress has already been
achieved, though the real result will be reflected in people's lives.
This is the most fundamental task and it has not been achieved yet,"
he said.
He expressed his hope that in the near future the concrete results
and realization of those agreements that exist between the sides will
take place and that they will have the possibility to speak about
certain progress in a concrete sphere that was achieved this year as
a result of the work implemented.
He said that the negotiation process is a very difficult one and that
there are lots of conflicts all over the world. "World experience
shows us that such issues cannot be solved quickly, within days and
weeks. The most important is that the process is underway and that
number of the countries and organizations involved has increased.
This issue practically became of an international importance and
those issues which have not been even mentioned, are now on the
agenda," he said.
"It is very hard to return a country which used to live without any
law into the sphere of laws, especially when there are enclaves on
that territory, where there exists a special and different attitude
toward the law," Khaindrava said.
Khaindrava also expressed his optimism that the conflicts will be
resolved in near future.
"The fact that this difficult process is intensively underway means
that the groundwork has been laid for us to achieve good and positive
results. However, I have no doubt that we will achieve results in the
future, because intense work and dialogue is taking place in this
direction in our government as well as in our society," he said,
concluding that this gives the Georgian government the hope "that we
will overcome these difficulties."