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RUSSIA ARMED US WELL, I WON'T HIDE IT
Kommersant, Russia
Sept 26 2005
Speaker of the Parliament of South Ossetia Znaur Gassiev talks with
Kommersant special correspondent Olga Allenova about the possibility
of uniting the two Ossetias.
What was the gist of the agreement you signed with Taimuraz Mamsurov
before the celebration of the North Ossetian Independence Day?
Politically, it is a very important document. Intentions to unite
the two Ossetias have been codified for the first time. That means
that preparations for unification will continue. The agreement covers
economic and cultural cooperation, with the goal of leading us to the
"X moment" when unification will take place. A similar agreement
was signed at the same time with Abkhazia, although the political
import there is different. There it is a matter of standing up foir
the interests of unrecognized states.
Why hadn't such an agreement been signed with North Ossetia before?
We had similar agreements under [former North Ossetian presidents]
Galazov and Dzasokhov, but there was practically no political element
in them.
Are you placing hope on Taimuraz Mamsurov?
I don't know Taimuraz well. I don't know how the Kremlin is oriented
toward him in this issue, whether they are in consultations, and so
on. That is to say that the Kremlin did not say, Ossetians, sits down
and agree on unification. So far that is only an intention. But the
desire of the people to return to their roots is so strong that they
won't want to change course. The people are ready to go all the way.
All the way to Russia?
Yes, of course. Let's work it out. The situation would be the same
without Russia, or Tatarstan or Mongolia. We want in where the other
half of our people already are. That's all. Of course, we want into
a strong state that will protect us. So there is a pull toward Russia.
We all speak Russian. I can't say in Ossetian the things I am saying to
you in Russian. All Ossetians are like that. Take a Georgian village
and an Ossetian village. In the Georgian village, they can't put two
words together in Russian, but in the Ossetian village they speak
it not badly. That is, they have no pull to the Russian language,
and we do.
Do you think that unification is realistic?
You can say a lot about the legal aspects of our situation, but the
real situation is that Russia and America are butting heads, and we
are stuck in the middle. America is defending Georgia's interests,
and we are defending Russia's interests and our own. We are a divided
people that wants to be united.
But Georgia won't let you.
Georgia has no choice. Georgia made a lot of mistakes and didn't
learn anything from them. Gamsakhurdia did a lot of harm to Georgia's
image. It would be easier for them to solve the problems with us
without force. Generations of Ossetians had grown up in Georgia before
Gamsakhurdia started the war. It is wrong to say that Georgian and
Ossetians are incompatible. I know that for myself. I grew up and
reached old age in Soviet times and lived among Georgians, studying
and working in Tbilisi. We have no ethnic prejudice. The Abkhazians
and Georgians have it very strongly. But it is not in our nature.
Those two relapses, in the 1920s and 1990s, that School No. 5 [in
1991 and 1992, victims of the Ossetian-Georgian conflict were buried
in the courtyard of School No. 5 in Tskhinvali, because the city's
cemetery was held by Georgian forces], those orphaned children that
everyone knows, it all resounds deeply in the people. And the pull
in us is not specifically to Russia because everything is good there,
but to unification of the people.
Under Yeltsin, things in Russian were undefined. The first years
under Putin too were not noteworthy for us. He had his own problems.
But now Russia is showing some interest in us. You understand that
Georgia won't gain anything from a war here. Because the people
won't allow it. Yes, the sides are unequal. Georgia is a state of
five million, and there aren't even 100,000 of us. But still they
won't get anything out of it.
Will Russia help you?
Not only will it help, it is helping now. Why pretend otherwise? In
1991, we faced the Georgians with sticks and slingshots, because we
didn't have any weapons. A year ago, things were different. They had
to withdraw. Now even more. Were you at the parade? Did you see the
equipment? Yes, their army is also better than it was 15 years ago.
Then, it was a semi-criminal band made up of people Gamsakhurdia let
out of prison. They weren't ready for a real war either. Now they have
a real army. America saw to that. If they go against us one on one
here, they will get nothing but bitterness. But we will see nothing
but bitterness too. We have a different spirit. We convinced ourselves
of that in last year's war. They withdrew last summer because the
guys here are fighting on their own ground. And Russia armed us well,
I won't hide it.
But you admit it yourself, that Russia is on one side, and America
on the other.
Americans are pragmatic. They armed Georgia, but stipulated in a
separate document with an article 3 that that army is not to take
part in the solution of the conflicts in South Ossetia and Abkhazia
with weapons. America doesn't need accusations that people there are
being killed with its weapons. In August a year ago, Georgia broke
that agreement, and America ordered Georgia to withdraw those forces
within two hours. The U.S. ambassador to the OSCE told me that when
he was here.
And, finally, as soon as they attack us, all of the North Caucasus will
rise to our aid. Chechens went to Abkhazia then, but everyone will
come to us. So they can't solve the problem militarily. All that's
left is the Helsinki Declaration of 1975 on the rights of nations
to self-determination. A nation should be united. In today's world,
if it's not a single state, it is hard for it to survive.
I didn't see a single official representative of the Russian
authorities or any deputies in the Independence Day parade. At least
Fatherland Party leader Rogozin used to come. Russia is helping you,
but that help is somehow underground, not in the open. Will Russia
support unification?
I wouldn't stake my life on it, but it is possible, very possible. It
all depends on how Russia and America divide their spheres of
influence. But look, world events are pushing Russia and America
into each other's arms. Yes, America is stronger, it is the only
superpower left, but it still can't butt heads with Russia. It
is forced to take Russia into account. There are many indications
behind the scenes in recent times that Russia is interested in the
unification of the two republics at the very highest level. The fact
that we don't see anyone here with Rogozin's rank... I'll tell you a
secret, just without mentioning any names. People with status a lot
higher than Rogozin's have been here.
Did they decide about unification?
No. That was not in their competency, they had other functions. But
Russia isn't hiding to that it has taken guardianship of us. Its goals
are clear. Russia is being crowded out of the Transcaucasus, and it
doesn't want to be. Russia only has two tiny bits of the Transcaucasus
left - Abkhazia and us. Anyone can see what is happening in Armenia. It
is coming under Western influence. But here, in these two spots,
there is clear orientation toward Russia. I won't be surprised if
Ossetia will be united in a year or two. But everything depends, I
say again, on how the two superpowers reach an agreement. It is hard
to tell. Both of them, Putin and Bush, are in their last terms. Who
will go farther and how events unfold is still unknown.
If Russia reached an agreement with Georgia and they make you go back
to Georgia, then what?
Everything will depend on what they agree on and what guarantees
they give us. Saakashvili stated in the Parliamentary Assembly of
the European Council that he gives us more autonomy than they have
in North Ossetia... if only anyone believed it. They promised so much
in Ajaria too, and what was the result? Well, I'll say it again.
Everything is in God's power, everything is possible. Here it is
still 50/50. Russia or Georgia.
Do you think the Ossetians can forget the war?
If there won't be any agitation on the state level from both sides
that you can't forget the war, then everything can be forgotten. Time
heals. Algeria boiled over once. You remember the Algerian people's
freedom movement against France. Thousands of people died. And wise
de Gaulle didn't get too wise. He let Algeria go. The French radicals
rose up against him, there were assassination attempts. Algeria went
its own way. Now it is asking to come back. Five million Algerians live
in France. Because that wise decision showed the Algerians that they
had it better with France. And they all remained French-speaking. The
battles died down, generations changed, and life took its own course.
Listening to you, I am reminded of a Georgian politician who said
that, when Georgia joins Europe, South Ossetia and Abkhazia will ask
to join it on their own.
Yes, maybe, but that is 50/50 too. Any one of those possibilities
is realistic. Dissension never leads to a constructive life. We
have to give up dissension and come into each other's arms, without
extremity. You have to be a little bit of a de Gaulle.
Politicians in Georgia say that a strong, united Ossetia is not in
Russia's best interests. Especially after Beslan, when part of the
Ossetians understood that Russia cannot protect them.
No. That's not true. Ossetia never was a strong community and it
never will be. They tell that horror tale for nothing. Who are we?
There aren't even 600,000 of us. Chechnya - that's really a special
people, a warrior people. Hell broke loose there. Ossetia, no. There
is no danger to Russia here. Then the North Caucasus is mainly
Muslim. Ossetia is the only Orthodox Christian republic here. It is
dangerous for Ossetia to be part of Russia. But where else is there?
If the world were suddenly made perfect, it would matter to Ossetia
where it lived.
From: Emil Lazarian | Ararat NewsPress
Kommersant, Russia
Sept 26 2005
Speaker of the Parliament of South Ossetia Znaur Gassiev talks with
Kommersant special correspondent Olga Allenova about the possibility
of uniting the two Ossetias.
What was the gist of the agreement you signed with Taimuraz Mamsurov
before the celebration of the North Ossetian Independence Day?
Politically, it is a very important document. Intentions to unite
the two Ossetias have been codified for the first time. That means
that preparations for unification will continue. The agreement covers
economic and cultural cooperation, with the goal of leading us to the
"X moment" when unification will take place. A similar agreement
was signed at the same time with Abkhazia, although the political
import there is different. There it is a matter of standing up foir
the interests of unrecognized states.
Why hadn't such an agreement been signed with North Ossetia before?
We had similar agreements under [former North Ossetian presidents]
Galazov and Dzasokhov, but there was practically no political element
in them.
Are you placing hope on Taimuraz Mamsurov?
I don't know Taimuraz well. I don't know how the Kremlin is oriented
toward him in this issue, whether they are in consultations, and so
on. That is to say that the Kremlin did not say, Ossetians, sits down
and agree on unification. So far that is only an intention. But the
desire of the people to return to their roots is so strong that they
won't want to change course. The people are ready to go all the way.
All the way to Russia?
Yes, of course. Let's work it out. The situation would be the same
without Russia, or Tatarstan or Mongolia. We want in where the other
half of our people already are. That's all. Of course, we want into
a strong state that will protect us. So there is a pull toward Russia.
We all speak Russian. I can't say in Ossetian the things I am saying to
you in Russian. All Ossetians are like that. Take a Georgian village
and an Ossetian village. In the Georgian village, they can't put two
words together in Russian, but in the Ossetian village they speak
it not badly. That is, they have no pull to the Russian language,
and we do.
Do you think that unification is realistic?
You can say a lot about the legal aspects of our situation, but the
real situation is that Russia and America are butting heads, and we
are stuck in the middle. America is defending Georgia's interests,
and we are defending Russia's interests and our own. We are a divided
people that wants to be united.
But Georgia won't let you.
Georgia has no choice. Georgia made a lot of mistakes and didn't
learn anything from them. Gamsakhurdia did a lot of harm to Georgia's
image. It would be easier for them to solve the problems with us
without force. Generations of Ossetians had grown up in Georgia before
Gamsakhurdia started the war. It is wrong to say that Georgian and
Ossetians are incompatible. I know that for myself. I grew up and
reached old age in Soviet times and lived among Georgians, studying
and working in Tbilisi. We have no ethnic prejudice. The Abkhazians
and Georgians have it very strongly. But it is not in our nature.
Those two relapses, in the 1920s and 1990s, that School No. 5 [in
1991 and 1992, victims of the Ossetian-Georgian conflict were buried
in the courtyard of School No. 5 in Tskhinvali, because the city's
cemetery was held by Georgian forces], those orphaned children that
everyone knows, it all resounds deeply in the people. And the pull
in us is not specifically to Russia because everything is good there,
but to unification of the people.
Under Yeltsin, things in Russian were undefined. The first years
under Putin too were not noteworthy for us. He had his own problems.
But now Russia is showing some interest in us. You understand that
Georgia won't gain anything from a war here. Because the people
won't allow it. Yes, the sides are unequal. Georgia is a state of
five million, and there aren't even 100,000 of us. But still they
won't get anything out of it.
Will Russia help you?
Not only will it help, it is helping now. Why pretend otherwise? In
1991, we faced the Georgians with sticks and slingshots, because we
didn't have any weapons. A year ago, things were different. They had
to withdraw. Now even more. Were you at the parade? Did you see the
equipment? Yes, their army is also better than it was 15 years ago.
Then, it was a semi-criminal band made up of people Gamsakhurdia let
out of prison. They weren't ready for a real war either. Now they have
a real army. America saw to that. If they go against us one on one
here, they will get nothing but bitterness. But we will see nothing
but bitterness too. We have a different spirit. We convinced ourselves
of that in last year's war. They withdrew last summer because the
guys here are fighting on their own ground. And Russia armed us well,
I won't hide it.
But you admit it yourself, that Russia is on one side, and America
on the other.
Americans are pragmatic. They armed Georgia, but stipulated in a
separate document with an article 3 that that army is not to take
part in the solution of the conflicts in South Ossetia and Abkhazia
with weapons. America doesn't need accusations that people there are
being killed with its weapons. In August a year ago, Georgia broke
that agreement, and America ordered Georgia to withdraw those forces
within two hours. The U.S. ambassador to the OSCE told me that when
he was here.
And, finally, as soon as they attack us, all of the North Caucasus will
rise to our aid. Chechens went to Abkhazia then, but everyone will
come to us. So they can't solve the problem militarily. All that's
left is the Helsinki Declaration of 1975 on the rights of nations
to self-determination. A nation should be united. In today's world,
if it's not a single state, it is hard for it to survive.
I didn't see a single official representative of the Russian
authorities or any deputies in the Independence Day parade. At least
Fatherland Party leader Rogozin used to come. Russia is helping you,
but that help is somehow underground, not in the open. Will Russia
support unification?
I wouldn't stake my life on it, but it is possible, very possible. It
all depends on how Russia and America divide their spheres of
influence. But look, world events are pushing Russia and America
into each other's arms. Yes, America is stronger, it is the only
superpower left, but it still can't butt heads with Russia. It
is forced to take Russia into account. There are many indications
behind the scenes in recent times that Russia is interested in the
unification of the two republics at the very highest level. The fact
that we don't see anyone here with Rogozin's rank... I'll tell you a
secret, just without mentioning any names. People with status a lot
higher than Rogozin's have been here.
Did they decide about unification?
No. That was not in their competency, they had other functions. But
Russia isn't hiding to that it has taken guardianship of us. Its goals
are clear. Russia is being crowded out of the Transcaucasus, and it
doesn't want to be. Russia only has two tiny bits of the Transcaucasus
left - Abkhazia and us. Anyone can see what is happening in Armenia. It
is coming under Western influence. But here, in these two spots,
there is clear orientation toward Russia. I won't be surprised if
Ossetia will be united in a year or two. But everything depends, I
say again, on how the two superpowers reach an agreement. It is hard
to tell. Both of them, Putin and Bush, are in their last terms. Who
will go farther and how events unfold is still unknown.
If Russia reached an agreement with Georgia and they make you go back
to Georgia, then what?
Everything will depend on what they agree on and what guarantees
they give us. Saakashvili stated in the Parliamentary Assembly of
the European Council that he gives us more autonomy than they have
in North Ossetia... if only anyone believed it. They promised so much
in Ajaria too, and what was the result? Well, I'll say it again.
Everything is in God's power, everything is possible. Here it is
still 50/50. Russia or Georgia.
Do you think the Ossetians can forget the war?
If there won't be any agitation on the state level from both sides
that you can't forget the war, then everything can be forgotten. Time
heals. Algeria boiled over once. You remember the Algerian people's
freedom movement against France. Thousands of people died. And wise
de Gaulle didn't get too wise. He let Algeria go. The French radicals
rose up against him, there were assassination attempts. Algeria went
its own way. Now it is asking to come back. Five million Algerians live
in France. Because that wise decision showed the Algerians that they
had it better with France. And they all remained French-speaking. The
battles died down, generations changed, and life took its own course.
Listening to you, I am reminded of a Georgian politician who said
that, when Georgia joins Europe, South Ossetia and Abkhazia will ask
to join it on their own.
Yes, maybe, but that is 50/50 too. Any one of those possibilities
is realistic. Dissension never leads to a constructive life. We
have to give up dissension and come into each other's arms, without
extremity. You have to be a little bit of a de Gaulle.
Politicians in Georgia say that a strong, united Ossetia is not in
Russia's best interests. Especially after Beslan, when part of the
Ossetians understood that Russia cannot protect them.
No. That's not true. Ossetia never was a strong community and it
never will be. They tell that horror tale for nothing. Who are we?
There aren't even 600,000 of us. Chechnya - that's really a special
people, a warrior people. Hell broke loose there. Ossetia, no. There
is no danger to Russia here. Then the North Caucasus is mainly
Muslim. Ossetia is the only Orthodox Christian republic here. It is
dangerous for Ossetia to be part of Russia. But where else is there?
If the world were suddenly made perfect, it would matter to Ossetia
where it lived.
From: Emil Lazarian | Ararat NewsPress