Tweet
FORUM 18 NEWS SERVICE, Oslo, Norway
http://www.forum18.org/
The right to believe, to worship and witness
The right to change one's belief or religion
The right to join together and express one's belief
========================================== ======
Thursday 4 December 2008
NAGORNO-KARABAKH: "THE LAW IS LIKE RUBBER"
President Sahakyan of the internationally unrecognised entity of
Nagorno-Karabakh is considering a restrictive new Religion Law, Forum 18
News Service has found. The new Law imposes vaguely formulated
restrictions, including: an apparent ban on unregistered religious
activity; state censorship of religious literature; an undefined "monopoly"
given to the Armenian Apostolic Church over preaching and spreading its
faith, while banning "soul-hunting" and restricting others to undefined
"rallying their own faithful". Garik Grigoryan, head of the parliamentary
Commission on State Legal Issues claimed to Forum 18 that "it will be a
more liberal, democratic Law." Members of religious communities have
expressed serious concerns to Forum 18. One member of the Armenian
Apostolic Church rhetorically asked Forum 18: "Where's the freedom?"
Another described the Law as "like rubber," noting that "you can't see
exactly how it's going to be put into practice." The Law also does not
resolve the issue of a civilian alternative to compulsory military service.
NAGORNO-KARABAKH: "THE LAW IS LIKE RUBBER"
By Felix Corley, Forum 18 News Service <http://www.forum18.org>
Members of religious minority communities in the internationally
unrecognised Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh in the South Caucasus have
expressed concerns to Forum 18 News Service about restrictions on freedom
of thought, conscience and belief in a new Religion Law. The Law has passed
through the entity's parliament and needs the signature of the entity's
President, Bako Sahakyan, to come into force. Much, but not all, of the new
Law is copied word-for-word from Armenia's Religion Law as adopted in 1991
and amended in 1997 and 2001.
The main restrictions in Karabakh's Law are: an apparent ban on
unregistered religious activity; state censorship of religious literature;
the requirement for 100 adult citizens to register a religious community;
an undefined "monopoly" given to the Armenian Apostolic Church over
preaching and spreading its faith while restricting other faiths to
similarly undefined "rallying their own faithful"; and the vague
formulation of restrictions, making the intended implementation of many
articles uncertain.
The new Law had its first reading in parliament in October, Garik
Grigoryan, head of parliament's Commission on State Legal Issues, told
Forum 18 from the capital Stepanakert on 2 December. He said that of the 21
deputies present during the final vote on 26 November, 16 were in favour of
the Law, three were against and two abstained. If it is approved by the
President, the Law will replace completely Karabakh's current 1996 Religion
Law.
The President has one month to sign or reject the Religion Law from the
point at which he receives it. It is unclear when the President received
it, but it had its second, final, parliamentary reading on 26 November. If
approved, the Law will come into force ten days later.
Grigoryan refused to speculate on whether President Sahakyan will sign the
Law. Forum 18 was unable to reach anyone at the Presidential Administration
in Stepanakert on 2 or 3 December to find out if the president is likely to
sign it. Sahakyan was in Geneva in late November and arrived in Moscow on 1
December.
Despite the Law's restrictions, which violate international human rights
standards, Grigoryan of parliament's Commission on State Legal Issues
defends the Law. "It will be a more liberal, democratic Law," he insisted
to Forum 18.
Article 5 requires 100 adult citizens for a community to apply for legal
status. As in Armenia, religions must be based on "a historic holy book",
must be "part of the worldwide system of the contemporary religious
community" and "directed to spiritual values". The government's Department
for Ethnic Minority and Religious Affairs has to give its expert conclusion
on a community before registration can be approved. The Department can also
go to court to have an organisation liquidated, if it violates the Law.
Although the Law does not specifically ban unregistered religious
activity, Article 25 requires all religious organisations to register or
re-register within six months of the new Law coming into force.
Grigoryan dismissed fears that the the Department for Ethnic Minority and
Religious Affairs might give a negative verdict on a religious community
officials do not like, and bar it from gaining legal status. "That's not
possible," he claimed. "And if it does happen people can challenge the
decision in court."
He insisted that the Law does ban unregistered religious activity, and
rejected any criticism of Article 25's registration requirements. "This
isn't absurd - why else would we have adopted the Law?" Asked what would
happen to a group of friends who might get together in a private home to
pray, Grigoryan responded: "Well, that would be OK." He then pointed out
that Karabakh is still under martial law, when unauthorised gatherings can
be forbidden.
In a potentially significant change from the parallel article in Armenia's
Law, the Karabakh Law removes the specific recognition that registered
religious organisations can hold services "in homes and residences of
citizens" from the list of suitable places as given in Armenia's Law.
One religious minority told Forum 18 on 3 December that "we are worried by
the permission required to rent premises for meetings and the failure to
declare specifically - unlike in Armenia's Law - that religious meetings
can be held in private homes."
The Jehovah's Witnesses - who have some 300 adherents in Karabakh - point
out that they have already faced problems this year over rental of a
meeting place. The Prosecutor's Office in Stepanakert wrote in June both to
the local community and to the owner of a building which he rented to the
community for worship. "The letter said that because the community is not
registered it has no right to rent anywhere," the Jehovah's Witnesses told
Forum 18. "But this is wrong, as the rental was done personally by one of
our people."
The Jehovah's Witnesses say that, if the new Law is approved, they will
try to seek registration. However, they report that they met Ashot
Sargsyan, the head of the Department for Ethnic Minority and Religious
Affairs, in early November. "He told us that as long as he is working for
the government we will not get registration," they told Forum 18. "He said
openly he's a member of the Armenian Church."
Article 17 - like the corresponding article in the Armenian Law -
specifically gives the Armenian Apostolic Church a "monopoly" of preaching
its faith, building new churches, contributing to the "spiritual
edification of the people" including by teaching in state-run educational
institutions, conducting charitable activity and maintaining permanent
religious representatives in institutions such as hospitals, old people's
homes, military units and prisons.
One controversial provision in Article 8 - copied from Armenia's Law -
bans "soul-hunting", a derogatory term in Armenian for seeking converts.
Parliamentary deputy Grigoryan refused to explain what "soul-hunting"
meant. "That's how it is written in the Law we've adopted, I can't explain
it."
Uncertainty over the meaning of the ban on "soul-hunting" was also
expressed by a Jehovah's Witness. "They don't explain what this means," he
complained to Forum 18 on 3 December.
While the extensive rights of the Armenian Church are set out in Article
17, the rights of religious organisations set out in Article 7 are all
inward-looking, with the first right specified as "rallying their own
faithful around them". The article also allows them to train their leaders,
conduct services in their own premises and in state institutions at the
request of residents who belong to the religious community.
"It is bad that the Law allows only the Armenian Apostolic Church to
preach its faith," the Jehovah's Witness told Forum 18. "This is against
the Constitution." Although Article 10 of Karabakh's Constitution gives the
Armenian Church the "exclusive mission" in the spiritual life of the
people, Article 26 guarantees religious freedom and the freedom to express
religious views.
In clear contradiction to Article 17's granting of a "monopoly" to the
Armenian Church, Article 7 allows all of them to conduct charitable
activity.
Karabakh's new Law gives a place of primacy to the Armenian Church in
Article 6, and only this Church is mentioned in relation to the restitution
of religious property. This is despite the fact that several mosques still
stand - even if badly damaged during fighting in the early 1990s over
Karabakh and in subsequent reprisal attacks - in areas controlled by the
Karabakh authorities. The mosques have been abandoned since the Azeri and
Kurdish populations were driven out during the war.
Another controversial provision comes in Article 22, which is not present
in Armenia's Religion Law. This Article hands the state "control" over the
production, distribution and import of religious literature and objects.
The Article does not clarify the exact nature of such "control".
Parliamentary deputy Grigoryan dismissed any concerns over the government
controls on religious literature. "It's not exactly censorship," he told
Forum 18. "But permission will be needed for religious literature. You can
call it what you like."
A Stepanakert-based member of the Brotherhood, an evangelical grouping
within the Armenian Apostolic Church which has about a dozen groups in
Karabakh, who wished to remain unnamed, expressed scepticism about how
realistic it will be to control religious literature in practice. He
expected, he told Forum 18 on 3 December, that the government will try to
ban any Jehovah's Witness, Baha'i, Hare Krishna or Muslim literature. His
preferred solution was for a group of Christian leaders to get together to
decide which literature was acceptable.
The Jehovah's Witnesses pointed out to Forum 18 that they have already had
problems over religious literature controls. On 20 July, eight minibuses
bringing back more than 120 of their members to Stepanakert from a
convention in the southern Armenian town of Kapan were stopped at a police
control point on re-entry to Karabakh. Officers told them they were going
to search the minibuses. Asked to show documents authorising the searches,
the police admitted they did not have any. Then one policeman showed his
police certificate and said this was the basis for the search. When the
Jehovah's Witnesses said they would lodge a complaint, police told them
they could complain to whoever they liked. "For seven hours they rummaged
through their possessions in a degrading manner," Jehovah's Witnesses told
Forum 18. "They confiscated all the literature except the Bibles." None of
the literature has been returned.
Some members of religious minorities think that - as in neighbouring
Armenia - not much if any state control will be imposed in practice. "It
depends how the new Law will be implemented," the general secretary of
Armenia's Baptist Union Asatur Nahapetyan told Forum 18 from the Armenian
capital Yerevan on 3 December. "It will take about six months for it to be
clear what is happening." The Armenian Baptist Union also covers Karabakh.
Echoing this view is Hamlet Zakaryan, the Armenia-based head of the
Brotherhood. "The Law is like rubber," he told Forum 18 from Yerevan on 3
December. "Even though it reflects some Soviet thinking, you can't see
exactly how it's going to be put into practice."
Nahapetyan of the Baptist Union pointed out that the six affiliated
Baptist congregations in Karabakh are not restricted, "though there is less
freedom than in Armenia". He stressed that they were able to hold a youth
conference in Stepanakert in October without problems.
The Stepanakert-based member of the Brotherhood thinks the new Law will
not restrict the Brotherhood's activity, but is concerned about
restrictions that he believes will be imposed on other religious
communities. "I don't like the text all that much," he told Forum 18. "It
speaks of freedom of conscience but only the Armenian Church has the right
to evangelise. Any other community can only work among its own members.
Where's the freedom?"
Gagik Mirzoyan, a member of a Council of Churches Baptist congregation,
told Forum 18 on 3 December that he was not familiar with the new Law and
did not know if it will make life more difficult for their small
congregations. "As with all the congregations in our Council of Churches
our position is not to seek registration," he told Forum 18. He said that
in recent years their congregations' activity has not been restricted in
Karabakh.
Forum 18 has been unable to find out why a new Religion Law has been
adopted and where the impetus came from. The Brotherhood member expressed
some surprise that Karabakh's politicians have devoted attention to it. "I
don't think ordinary members of the public are particularly bothered by the
religious situation."
The telephone of Sargsyan, head of the government's Department for Ethnic
Minority and Religious Affairs, went unanswered each time Forum 18 called
on 2 and 3 December. Others told Forum 18 that Sargsyan was on leave.
The new Religion Law does not resolve the issue of an alternative to
Karabakh's compulsory military service for all young men. One Jehovah's
Witness, Areg Hovhanesyan, is nearing the end of a four-year sentence
imposed by a court in Stepanakert in February 2005 for refusing military
service on grounds of religious conscience (see F18News 27 March 2008
<http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?articl e_id=1105>).
Jehovah's Witnesses say he is being well-treated in the prison in Shusha
not far from Stepanakert, where he is even allowed out while looking after
animals. They say family members are able to visit him.
Mirzoyan, the Baptist, was earlier beaten and imprisoned for refusing to
swear the military oath and bear weapons during his military service. He
was later allowed to serve as a cook without the oath and without a gun,
and completed his service in January 2008 (see F18News 27 March 2008
<http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?articl e_id=1105>). (END)
Further coverage of freedom of thought, conscience and belief in
Nagorno-Karabakh is at
<http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?query=&a mp;religion=all&country=22>.
A printer-friendly map of the disputed enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh is
available at
<http://www.nationalgeographic.com/xpedition s/atlas/index.html?Parent=asia&Rootmap=azerba& gt;
within the map titled 'Azerbaijan'.
(END)
© Forum 18 News Service. All rights reserved. ISSN 1504-2855
You may reproduce or quote this article provided that credit is given to
F18News http://www.forum18.org/
Past and current Forum 18 information can be found at
http://www.forum18.org/
http://www.forum18.org/
The right to believe, to worship and witness
The right to change one's belief or religion
The right to join together and express one's belief
========================================== ======
Thursday 4 December 2008
NAGORNO-KARABAKH: "THE LAW IS LIKE RUBBER"
President Sahakyan of the internationally unrecognised entity of
Nagorno-Karabakh is considering a restrictive new Religion Law, Forum 18
News Service has found. The new Law imposes vaguely formulated
restrictions, including: an apparent ban on unregistered religious
activity; state censorship of religious literature; an undefined "monopoly"
given to the Armenian Apostolic Church over preaching and spreading its
faith, while banning "soul-hunting" and restricting others to undefined
"rallying their own faithful". Garik Grigoryan, head of the parliamentary
Commission on State Legal Issues claimed to Forum 18 that "it will be a
more liberal, democratic Law." Members of religious communities have
expressed serious concerns to Forum 18. One member of the Armenian
Apostolic Church rhetorically asked Forum 18: "Where's the freedom?"
Another described the Law as "like rubber," noting that "you can't see
exactly how it's going to be put into practice." The Law also does not
resolve the issue of a civilian alternative to compulsory military service.
NAGORNO-KARABAKH: "THE LAW IS LIKE RUBBER"
By Felix Corley, Forum 18 News Service <http://www.forum18.org>
Members of religious minority communities in the internationally
unrecognised Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh in the South Caucasus have
expressed concerns to Forum 18 News Service about restrictions on freedom
of thought, conscience and belief in a new Religion Law. The Law has passed
through the entity's parliament and needs the signature of the entity's
President, Bako Sahakyan, to come into force. Much, but not all, of the new
Law is copied word-for-word from Armenia's Religion Law as adopted in 1991
and amended in 1997 and 2001.
The main restrictions in Karabakh's Law are: an apparent ban on
unregistered religious activity; state censorship of religious literature;
the requirement for 100 adult citizens to register a religious community;
an undefined "monopoly" given to the Armenian Apostolic Church over
preaching and spreading its faith while restricting other faiths to
similarly undefined "rallying their own faithful"; and the vague
formulation of restrictions, making the intended implementation of many
articles uncertain.
The new Law had its first reading in parliament in October, Garik
Grigoryan, head of parliament's Commission on State Legal Issues, told
Forum 18 from the capital Stepanakert on 2 December. He said that of the 21
deputies present during the final vote on 26 November, 16 were in favour of
the Law, three were against and two abstained. If it is approved by the
President, the Law will replace completely Karabakh's current 1996 Religion
Law.
The President has one month to sign or reject the Religion Law from the
point at which he receives it. It is unclear when the President received
it, but it had its second, final, parliamentary reading on 26 November. If
approved, the Law will come into force ten days later.
Grigoryan refused to speculate on whether President Sahakyan will sign the
Law. Forum 18 was unable to reach anyone at the Presidential Administration
in Stepanakert on 2 or 3 December to find out if the president is likely to
sign it. Sahakyan was in Geneva in late November and arrived in Moscow on 1
December.
Despite the Law's restrictions, which violate international human rights
standards, Grigoryan of parliament's Commission on State Legal Issues
defends the Law. "It will be a more liberal, democratic Law," he insisted
to Forum 18.
Article 5 requires 100 adult citizens for a community to apply for legal
status. As in Armenia, religions must be based on "a historic holy book",
must be "part of the worldwide system of the contemporary religious
community" and "directed to spiritual values". The government's Department
for Ethnic Minority and Religious Affairs has to give its expert conclusion
on a community before registration can be approved. The Department can also
go to court to have an organisation liquidated, if it violates the Law.
Although the Law does not specifically ban unregistered religious
activity, Article 25 requires all religious organisations to register or
re-register within six months of the new Law coming into force.
Grigoryan dismissed fears that the the Department for Ethnic Minority and
Religious Affairs might give a negative verdict on a religious community
officials do not like, and bar it from gaining legal status. "That's not
possible," he claimed. "And if it does happen people can challenge the
decision in court."
He insisted that the Law does ban unregistered religious activity, and
rejected any criticism of Article 25's registration requirements. "This
isn't absurd - why else would we have adopted the Law?" Asked what would
happen to a group of friends who might get together in a private home to
pray, Grigoryan responded: "Well, that would be OK." He then pointed out
that Karabakh is still under martial law, when unauthorised gatherings can
be forbidden.
In a potentially significant change from the parallel article in Armenia's
Law, the Karabakh Law removes the specific recognition that registered
religious organisations can hold services "in homes and residences of
citizens" from the list of suitable places as given in Armenia's Law.
One religious minority told Forum 18 on 3 December that "we are worried by
the permission required to rent premises for meetings and the failure to
declare specifically - unlike in Armenia's Law - that religious meetings
can be held in private homes."
The Jehovah's Witnesses - who have some 300 adherents in Karabakh - point
out that they have already faced problems this year over rental of a
meeting place. The Prosecutor's Office in Stepanakert wrote in June both to
the local community and to the owner of a building which he rented to the
community for worship. "The letter said that because the community is not
registered it has no right to rent anywhere," the Jehovah's Witnesses told
Forum 18. "But this is wrong, as the rental was done personally by one of
our people."
The Jehovah's Witnesses say that, if the new Law is approved, they will
try to seek registration. However, they report that they met Ashot
Sargsyan, the head of the Department for Ethnic Minority and Religious
Affairs, in early November. "He told us that as long as he is working for
the government we will not get registration," they told Forum 18. "He said
openly he's a member of the Armenian Church."
Article 17 - like the corresponding article in the Armenian Law -
specifically gives the Armenian Apostolic Church a "monopoly" of preaching
its faith, building new churches, contributing to the "spiritual
edification of the people" including by teaching in state-run educational
institutions, conducting charitable activity and maintaining permanent
religious representatives in institutions such as hospitals, old people's
homes, military units and prisons.
One controversial provision in Article 8 - copied from Armenia's Law -
bans "soul-hunting", a derogatory term in Armenian for seeking converts.
Parliamentary deputy Grigoryan refused to explain what "soul-hunting"
meant. "That's how it is written in the Law we've adopted, I can't explain
it."
Uncertainty over the meaning of the ban on "soul-hunting" was also
expressed by a Jehovah's Witness. "They don't explain what this means," he
complained to Forum 18 on 3 December.
While the extensive rights of the Armenian Church are set out in Article
17, the rights of religious organisations set out in Article 7 are all
inward-looking, with the first right specified as "rallying their own
faithful around them". The article also allows them to train their leaders,
conduct services in their own premises and in state institutions at the
request of residents who belong to the religious community.
"It is bad that the Law allows only the Armenian Apostolic Church to
preach its faith," the Jehovah's Witness told Forum 18. "This is against
the Constitution." Although Article 10 of Karabakh's Constitution gives the
Armenian Church the "exclusive mission" in the spiritual life of the
people, Article 26 guarantees religious freedom and the freedom to express
religious views.
In clear contradiction to Article 17's granting of a "monopoly" to the
Armenian Church, Article 7 allows all of them to conduct charitable
activity.
Karabakh's new Law gives a place of primacy to the Armenian Church in
Article 6, and only this Church is mentioned in relation to the restitution
of religious property. This is despite the fact that several mosques still
stand - even if badly damaged during fighting in the early 1990s over
Karabakh and in subsequent reprisal attacks - in areas controlled by the
Karabakh authorities. The mosques have been abandoned since the Azeri and
Kurdish populations were driven out during the war.
Another controversial provision comes in Article 22, which is not present
in Armenia's Religion Law. This Article hands the state "control" over the
production, distribution and import of religious literature and objects.
The Article does not clarify the exact nature of such "control".
Parliamentary deputy Grigoryan dismissed any concerns over the government
controls on religious literature. "It's not exactly censorship," he told
Forum 18. "But permission will be needed for religious literature. You can
call it what you like."
A Stepanakert-based member of the Brotherhood, an evangelical grouping
within the Armenian Apostolic Church which has about a dozen groups in
Karabakh, who wished to remain unnamed, expressed scepticism about how
realistic it will be to control religious literature in practice. He
expected, he told Forum 18 on 3 December, that the government will try to
ban any Jehovah's Witness, Baha'i, Hare Krishna or Muslim literature. His
preferred solution was for a group of Christian leaders to get together to
decide which literature was acceptable.
The Jehovah's Witnesses pointed out to Forum 18 that they have already had
problems over religious literature controls. On 20 July, eight minibuses
bringing back more than 120 of their members to Stepanakert from a
convention in the southern Armenian town of Kapan were stopped at a police
control point on re-entry to Karabakh. Officers told them they were going
to search the minibuses. Asked to show documents authorising the searches,
the police admitted they did not have any. Then one policeman showed his
police certificate and said this was the basis for the search. When the
Jehovah's Witnesses said they would lodge a complaint, police told them
they could complain to whoever they liked. "For seven hours they rummaged
through their possessions in a degrading manner," Jehovah's Witnesses told
Forum 18. "They confiscated all the literature except the Bibles." None of
the literature has been returned.
Some members of religious minorities think that - as in neighbouring
Armenia - not much if any state control will be imposed in practice. "It
depends how the new Law will be implemented," the general secretary of
Armenia's Baptist Union Asatur Nahapetyan told Forum 18 from the Armenian
capital Yerevan on 3 December. "It will take about six months for it to be
clear what is happening." The Armenian Baptist Union also covers Karabakh.
Echoing this view is Hamlet Zakaryan, the Armenia-based head of the
Brotherhood. "The Law is like rubber," he told Forum 18 from Yerevan on 3
December. "Even though it reflects some Soviet thinking, you can't see
exactly how it's going to be put into practice."
Nahapetyan of the Baptist Union pointed out that the six affiliated
Baptist congregations in Karabakh are not restricted, "though there is less
freedom than in Armenia". He stressed that they were able to hold a youth
conference in Stepanakert in October without problems.
The Stepanakert-based member of the Brotherhood thinks the new Law will
not restrict the Brotherhood's activity, but is concerned about
restrictions that he believes will be imposed on other religious
communities. "I don't like the text all that much," he told Forum 18. "It
speaks of freedom of conscience but only the Armenian Church has the right
to evangelise. Any other community can only work among its own members.
Where's the freedom?"
Gagik Mirzoyan, a member of a Council of Churches Baptist congregation,
told Forum 18 on 3 December that he was not familiar with the new Law and
did not know if it will make life more difficult for their small
congregations. "As with all the congregations in our Council of Churches
our position is not to seek registration," he told Forum 18. He said that
in recent years their congregations' activity has not been restricted in
Karabakh.
Forum 18 has been unable to find out why a new Religion Law has been
adopted and where the impetus came from. The Brotherhood member expressed
some surprise that Karabakh's politicians have devoted attention to it. "I
don't think ordinary members of the public are particularly bothered by the
religious situation."
The telephone of Sargsyan, head of the government's Department for Ethnic
Minority and Religious Affairs, went unanswered each time Forum 18 called
on 2 and 3 December. Others told Forum 18 that Sargsyan was on leave.
The new Religion Law does not resolve the issue of an alternative to
Karabakh's compulsory military service for all young men. One Jehovah's
Witness, Areg Hovhanesyan, is nearing the end of a four-year sentence
imposed by a court in Stepanakert in February 2005 for refusing military
service on grounds of religious conscience (see F18News 27 March 2008
<http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?articl e_id=1105>).
Jehovah's Witnesses say he is being well-treated in the prison in Shusha
not far from Stepanakert, where he is even allowed out while looking after
animals. They say family members are able to visit him.
Mirzoyan, the Baptist, was earlier beaten and imprisoned for refusing to
swear the military oath and bear weapons during his military service. He
was later allowed to serve as a cook without the oath and without a gun,
and completed his service in January 2008 (see F18News 27 March 2008
<http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?articl e_id=1105>). (END)
Further coverage of freedom of thought, conscience and belief in
Nagorno-Karabakh is at
<http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?query=&a mp;religion=all&country=22>.
A printer-friendly map of the disputed enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh is
available at
<http://www.nationalgeographic.com/xpedition s/atlas/index.html?Parent=asia&Rootmap=azerba& gt;
within the map titled 'Azerbaijan'.
(END)
© Forum 18 News Service. All rights reserved. ISSN 1504-2855
You may reproduce or quote this article provided that credit is given to
F18News http://www.forum18.org/
Past and current Forum 18 information can be found at
http://www.forum18.org/