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  • Jan Carnogursky: "The Armenians Of Karabakh Cannot Be Considered As

    JAN CARNOGURSKY: "THE ARMENIANS OF KARABAKH CANNOT BE CONSIDERED AS AGGRESSORS"

    Noyan Tapan
    Feb 6, 2008

    YEREVAN, FEBRUARY 6, NOYAN TAPAN. A delegation of Slovakia led by
    Mr. Jan Carnogursky, the former Prime Minister and the Justice Minister
    of that country, founder of "Christian-Democratic Movement" party, paid
    a three-day visit to Armenia on January 18-21. Within the framework
    of the visit, in Yerevan RA Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian thanked
    Mr. Carnogursky on the occasion of the adoption of the resolution on
    recognition of the Armenian Genocide by the Parliament of Slovakia
    in November, 2004 and handed him "Mkhitar Gosh" order awarded by the
    President. It is the highest state award for activity in the judiciary.

    We present you the three-party interview with the great friend of the
    Armenian people in which Ashot Grigorian, the head of the Armenian
    community of Slovakia, businessman, adviser of occasional staff of
    the RA Foreign Minister, participated. Mr. Grigorian was a principal
    organizer of the passage of the Genocide resolution in the Slovakian
    parliament and he also was the author of the resolution text.

    A.G. - I would like to once more express on behalf of the Armenian
    people my gratitude to Mr. Prime Minister and our lobbyists in Slovakia
    for the work they have done. We jointly began the elaboration of
    the issue of adoption of resolution on recognition of the Armenian
    Genocide by the National Council of Slovakia. Mr. Carnogursky defined
    the whole strategy of the issue's progress. He suggested submitting
    the issue for discussion of any sitting of the parliament not as a
    separate issue, but it will be connected with the discussion of the
    issue of giving consent to the candidacy of Turkey's membership to
    the European Union. Turkey was not ready to resist us at all, and
    our hard efforts to pass the issue in parliament were a success.

    It is interesting, what feelings did you have while participating
    in the process and passing the issue of recognition of the Armenian
    Genocide in parliament. Weren't you anxious that, first, the resolution
    could fail, and second, that after the adoption of the resolution
    Slovakia would face difficulties, and your party would lose its rating?

    J.C. - I have been a member of the Slovakian Parliament for 7 years,
    a member of the country's government for 6 years, which closely
    cooperates with the parliament. That is why I knew very well all the
    details of the parliament's work, knew how to submit the resolution
    of recognition of the Armenian Genocide to parliament to have it
    adopted. On the other hand, Slovakia had nothing to be afraid of
    Turkey. I only knew that Turkey had two weeks to get ready to resist
    the adoption of the above mentioned resolution by the parliament and
    will use its instruments, and even more, the instruments of the United
    States. It was supposed that the U.S. Ambassador to Slovakia will
    visit the leaders of the parliamentary parties and will try to exert
    pressure through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Knowing all that,
    we together with Mr. Grigorian and my Christian Democratic Movement
    (CDM) friends, worked out the adoption strategy and tactics of the
    above mentioned resolution.

    Mr. Grigorian gave me the draft resolution based on the texts of
    resolutions on recognition of the Armenian Genocide adopted in other
    countries, I worked out the recommendations concerning the resolution
    to be submitted to the Parliament of Slovakia, and everything passed
    successfully.

    N.T. - What pushed you forward to make those steps?

    J.C. - I must say that ordinary citizens of Slovakia know little
    about Armenia, they know that Armenians are a Christian nation and
    well-educated.

    And it was enough for sympathy towards Armenia in the Slovakian
    society.

    Those feelings are enough for the pro-Armenia proposals to receive
    support.

    It is the general condition. For me it's a condition that I, perhaps,
    knew with specific sides that Armenia is, let's say, in the tension
    front with Islam, that the Armenia nation has talented sons in all
    over the world, and that Armenia should be supported. It was the sum
    of all these that pushed me forward to promote the issue of resolution
    on recognition of the Armenian Genocide. On the other hand, I wanted
    Slovakia to enter the list of those countries, which have adopted
    such documents.

    A. G. - Turkey openly supports Azerbaijan. They say: "we are one
    people and two states." Naturally, Armenians are anxious about it. In
    addition, the Pan-Turkish geopolitics exists, the goal of which is
    to unite Turkish-speaking countries under a large, strong roof and to
    throw a challenge to Europe. From that point of view for Armenians it
    would not be bad if Turkey joins EU, as for Armenia it will be easier
    to live having its neighbor Turkey as a member of EU. However, now
    Turkey "plays" in two directions: one is the European Union, for which
    Turkey strives at the bidding of that country's progressive forces. On
    the other hand, in that country there is a growing number of people,
    who consider that in case of the fulfillment of the Pan-Turkish dream
    they cannot care a damn about Europe. But the problem of Armenia
    they were not able to liquidate even with the Genocide is in the
    "throat" of those thinking so. And the only chance of the Pan-Turkism
    apologists is Azerbaijan's being able to win the already finished
    war with Armenia. Here the position of Slovakia, an EU member,
    in the issue of considering Armenia an "aggressor" is interesting,
    as this opinion is spread by Azerbaijan in Europe.

    Second: The international law considers the principles of "peoples'
    self-determination" and "territorial integrity" as equal. In my
    opinion, it is the "crash" of modern politics and diplomacy that
    no one is able to prove which of these principles is primary. What
    is your opinion of it? In this issue my colleague's opinion is also
    rather interesting.

    J. C. - In general, the collapse of the Soviet Union is a very
    important episode of the development of the events. Before Armenia's
    joining the Soviet Union Nagorno Karabakh was Armenia's territory,
    and when the Soviet Union collapsed, the Armenians wanted to restore
    the state of affairs, which existed before Armenia's joining the
    Soviet Union.

    On the other hand, I understand that after experiencing the bitterness
    of being the victim of the 1915 Genocide the Armenians do not feel
    safe with Turkish-speaking people. Therefore, Karabakh wished to
    ensure its security through uniting with Armenia. I see the strategic
    reasons of breaking up of the war between Karabakh and Azerbaijan in
    the very thing.

    I live in Slovakia, three thousand kilometers away from Karabakh
    and Armenia, I do not know all the details. However, the knowledge
    of strategic episodes of the events is enough for me to consider the
    war by Karabakh as defensive. Of course, the prevailing majority of
    people living there have always been Armenians.

    As for the priority between the principles of "peoples'
    self-determination" and "territorial integrity," I believe that if
    the Armenians of Karabakh were sure that Azerbaijan was able to
    decide their fate within the international law, maybe they could
    wait. However, we saw that the Karabakh inhabitants could not be sure
    that when making part of Azerbaijan their fate will be decided within
    the international norms, as well as norms protecting human rights. And
    they chose the way of deciding their fate on their own, moreover as
    it was preceded by the slaughters of Armenians in Sumgait. Taken all
    of this, the Armenians cannot be considered aggressors.

    A. G. - It logically emanates from this that in the condition, in
    which Karabakh is, the international observers or the international
    community's opinion should be ready to accept the peoples'
    self-determination right as primary, as in the formed situation
    Karabakh's return into Azerbaijan's jurisdiction is impossible,
    especially if we count the number of refugees from Azerbaijan to
    Armenia and in the opposite direction.

    J. C. - I would like to add that certainly, the U.S., Great Britain and
    the EU countries, which are ready to recognize Kosovo's independence,
    cannot blame Karabakh and Armenia for violating the international law
    against Azerbaijan, as Karabakh does the same as Kosovo. Karabakh can
    be blamed by Russia, which does not recognize Kosovo's independence,
    but we know that it will not happen.

    A. G. - And really, the use of double standards in the West has
    become a usual thing. When they say that different things should
    be discussed in different ways, we say that certainly, in no case
    parallels should be drawn between the cases of Karabakh and Kosovo,
    as Karabakh wishes to achieve self-determination on its historic land,
    and Kosovo is quite a different version. However, if you decide to
    recognize Kosovo's independence, don't forget that we should discuss
    the problem of Karabakh with you. And unless the West recognizes
    Kosovo's independence, it means nothing: the Nagorno Karabakh problem
    should still remain a matter of discussion.

    N. T. - Slovakia is an EU member. Armenia is a country, which is on a
    geopolitical crossroad, in a region with a speed growing economy. What
    can the sides do to assist each other in the respect of development
    of regional cooperation?

    J. C. - The economic cooperation can be carried out between Slovakia
    and Armenia first of all in the spheres of tourism and trade. It will
    be good if businessmen are engaged in issues of economic cooperation
    without states' interference. It is a different matter that Slovakia
    can convey to Armenia the experience of legislation's improvement,
    which has been accumulated on the way of membership to EU. First of
    all, we should speak about bringing Armenia's trade legislation in
    line with EU's legislation. Armenia should step by step implement
    these legislative reforms to improve the conditions of trade with
    EU countries for Armenian businessmen. Though with the use of the
    legislation harmonious with the EU legislation Armenia may not be
    an EU member, that harmonization will be useful for Armenia. And in
    the future Slovakia can become Armenia's out-post in the issue of
    membership to EU.

    Slovakia's economic contacts with Armenia are much closer than with
    Georgia and Azerbaijan. In this respect the Slovak business already
    considers Armenia its out-post in the region, though none of the Slovak
    businessmen has formulated that idea yet: the historic process just
    develops in this direction.

    A. G. - In the last six or seven years Slovakia deepened its economic
    contacts with the very Armenia in spite of the fact that for instance,
    Georgia in difference to Armenia has an Embassy in Bratislava. The
    reason of this is the fact that Slovakia is the great friend of
    Armenia. I already cannot say that Slovakia is Azerbaijan's friend,
    and this is undoubtedly the result of our lobbyist activity, and I
    am happy and proud of it.

    Getting off the point of economic cooperation, let's talk about two
    more issues. The left wing prevails in Slovakia's government. The
    Christian Democratic Movement is more close to Christian Armenia. What
    relations does the party have with the "left" government and what
    political future awaits Slovakia? And the future of the Armenian-
    Slovak relations depend on it.

    J. C. - As for today's strategy of Slovakia, I consider that the
    Christian Democratic Movement, which has become an opposition should
    formulate even its positions contradicting government's positions and
    not take as a basis general liberal-right plans, which are brought
    from American universities. I am sure that the Christian Democratic
    Movement will have correct relations even with the government having
    another political orientation.

    A. G. I would like us also to speak about Slovakia's role in the
    political sphere and in Europe-U.S. geopolitical "games." The Slovaks
    are Christian.

    Slovakia has, as Armenians say, such brother related in kinship
    as Russia.

    The Russians for us, Armenians are a powerful people with a too strong
    spiritual culture, which is a great value for a European. The United
    States has its system of values and its peculiarities, which are often
    unintelligible for a European. If I do not understand them, it does not
    mean that they are bad. On the other hand, the one I understand is dear
    to me. I understand very well the Slovaks and Slovakia, therefore they
    are dear to me. The same regards Russia. What is your attitude to the
    above mentioned values, what role do they play in geopolitical respect?

    J. C. - In the period of "communism" for the majority of the Slovaks
    the United States had much authority. I consider that it was right,
    as the United States was to free even Russia from "communism." And
    the United States played an important role in that struggle. However,
    the things developed the way that after the downfall of "communism" the
    U.S. seems to continue its struggle this time against Russia. Slovakia
    does not wish to become an ally of the United States in that struggle,
    as in the past, emanating from historic conditions, Slovakia used to
    see Russia as its ideological partner and support when making part
    of Hungary in late 19th century and early 20th century. Therefore,
    anti-Russian views have never been widely spread in Slovakia.

    And though Slovakia became a member of NATO, which I consider
    Bratislava's error, and the result of the United States' intrigues,
    nevertheless my country does not wish to take part in any anti-Russian
    game, for instance, the story of possible construction of radio
    location stations by the U.S. in the Czech Republic. I will mention
    that in difference for instance, the Czech Republic and Poland,
    there are no American missiles in Slovakia.

    Therefore, Slovakia can even assume the role of a mediator between
    Russia and the EU.

    N. T. - Are there any programs of developing Armenian-Slovak cultural
    contacts?

    J. C. - Slovak art-lovers are familiar with some Armenian cultural
    values, in particular, Aram Khachatrian's music and William Saroyan's
    literature. At present Gurgen Hovsepian is one of the Slovakian
    National Theater's opera solo singers. We would be very glad if the
    Armenian Diaspora of Europe and American countries supported Slovak
    artists in presenting themselves in those countries.

    A. G. - I organized Days of Armenian Culture in 2005-06 in Bratislava,
    within the framework of which renowned violinist Sergey Khachatrian
    performed Aram Khachatrian's concert. The Armenian Philharmonic
    Orchestra performed brilliantly.

    I have reached a preliminary agreement with Slovak Minister of Culture
    Marek Mad'aric to organize his visit to Armenia in March. There
    are large-scale programs of developing Slovak-Armenian cultural
    contacts. I think the Ministry of Finance of Slovakia will also
    provide some financial assistance to organization of performances
    of high-class Slovak artists in Armenia. I will mention that I have
    twice sponsored performances of renowned Slovak jazzmen in Yerevan.

    I plan to credit production of a joint film of the Slovak Television
    and H1 with the insurance of the Slovak Eximbank. The respective
    agreements with the directors of these TV companies have been
    already reached. I envisage selling the Armenian-Slovak film to
    European countries' TV companies. There are also other programs
    to be implemented through crediting, for instance, broadcasting
    performances of Slovak opera and variety stars by Armenian TV channels,
    as well as broadcasting video clips of Armenian singers by the Slovak
    Television. I hope these programs will be fulfilled.

    In any case, I always pin my hopes on my Slovak friends. They never
    make me repeat my request and are always ready to fulfil proposals
    connected with the development of Slovak-Armenian relations, for
    which I'm very grateful to them.
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