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"WE SHOULD REGAIN NOT ONLY ABKHAZIA AND SOUTH OSSETIA BUT ALSO ABKHAZ AND OSSETIAN PEOPLE"
by Ivan Sukhov
DEFENSE and SECURITY
May 26, 2008 Monday
Russia
SITUATION IN THE CONFLICT ZONES IN ABKHAZIA AND SOUTH OSSETIA FROM
THE STANDPOINT OF STATE MINISTER OF GEORGIA FOR REINTEGRATION TEMURI
YAKOBASHVILI; Interview of State Minister of Georgia for Reintegration
Temuri Yakobashvili
State Minister of Georgia for Reintegration, Temuri Yakobashvili,
told the observer of Vremya Novostey about his vision of the situation
in the conflict zones in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
Question: The Georgian party proposed a number of initiatives for
resolving the Georgian-Abkhaz conflict. A fantastic version already
appeared in Russia due to the reservations of official comments. This
version said that there were separate negotiations between Georgia
and Abkhazia first and afterwards President of Abkhazia Sergei
Bagapsh flew to Moscow to approve the results in the Russian Foreign
Minister. Bagapsh confirmed the fact of negotiations but said that the
agreement was not achieved. Can you unveil the fog around this topic?
Yakobashvili: The Abkhaz party does not do anything which the Russians
are unaware of. Second, regretfully, agreements with the Abkhaz
party have not been achieved yet. Third, I am not longer surprised
by what the Russian press writes. I can use my own example: when I
flew from here they invented the idea that I planned to organize an
international conference on Abkhazia in Moscow.
Question: What are the results of your visit to Moscow?
Yakobashvili: Well, I did not expect any results from this visit except
for getting acquainted with the people who worked on Abkhazian issues
and to tell them about our vision of the situation and our solution
for the problem.
Question: Do you place some hopes on the new Russian President?
Yakobashvili: So far, we do not know if we can lay any hopes. We hope
that the Russian authorities in general - the new President or new
Prime Minister - will change their approaches to Georgia.
Question: What do you think Russia tries to bargain from Georgia by
its current pressure in the Abkhaz aspect?
Yakobashvili: Russia wants to tear off Abkhazia.
Question: Is this possible?
Yakobashvili: People in Moscow think that it is. People in Moscow
believe that if America "takes" Georgia and Ukraine they need to take
Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Crimea.
Question: Is this the standpoint of officials of the Russian Foreign
Ministry?
Yakobashvili: I do not think that the Foreign Ministry thinks in this
way but they have to formulate and justify all this. I pity officials
of the Russian Foreign Ministry who have to speak about the white
saying that it is black.
Question: Do you think that Russian authorities have received a
conviction that the annexation of Abkhazia from Georgia is possible at
all? The official standpoint has repeated the correct formulation of
the Foreign Ministry that Russia recognizes the territorial integrity
of Georgia for a long time.
Yakobashvili: You see, there is a trait of slyness in these
conversations because people in Moscow have assured me and I am more
than assured myself that Russia will never recognize the independence
of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Russia does not need this and it will
never do this. In my opinion, nothing will come of this. But when
all this is in the hands of the people here, who wish to earn money
there and to dismiss everyone, this is not a state policy.
Question: What is your vision of the ideal way out for the Abkhaz
and South Ossetian situations? What is the goal of the regulation?
Yakobashvili: The goal should look as follows: the Abkhaz and Ossetian
people should have three most important components of any regulation
plan. First, this is physical security. Second, these are guarantees
that their ethnos will be preserved and will develop. Third, these
are guarantees of economic development. These are three main things:
physical, ethnical cultural and economic security.
Question: People in Abkhazia and South Ossetia offer a simple
counter-argument: they have all these three things already. Which of
the things that they do not have does Georgia offer them?
Yakobashvili: First, they do not have this. They do not feel
secure. Otherwise they would not speak about a need to sign an
agreement on non-restarting of hostilities. Second, it seems to me that
the 45,000 population of ethnic Abkhaz people in Abkhazia actually
does not have enough resources to preserve their ethnos. This is an
ethnos that is becoming extinct and has serious healthcare problems
from drug addiction to serious infectious diseases. Only 30% of Abkhaz
people speak the Abkhaz language. Look at Abkhaz newspapers and you
will see that this is rather a stage of survival of the ethnos and
not its development.
I do not think that the Olympics in Sochi will become the decisive
breakthrough moment for the development of the economy of Abkhazia
about which people are talking all the time. These are fairytales. We
see only one thing now: crushed stone, sand and other materials that
are exported or will be exported from Abkhazia for Olympic construction
projects incur irreparable damage on the environment. The Soviet Union
was reinforcing the coast in Sochi and in Abkhazia because everything
was washed away. There is the same problem in Sochi too. It is not
quite clear how they are going to build anything there at all. For
Abkhazia the projects connected with Sochi result in an environmental
disaster of the entire coast.
Question: Which institutional base is Georgia prepared to offer for
implementation of the principles of regulation that you have outlined?
Yakobashvili: We speak about the creation of a post of vice president,
about the right of Abkhaz veto for any issues dealing with this
territory and about a free economic zone. For a part of South Ossetia
we also have plans that we are prepared to discuss with the South
Ossetians including those living in the part that is not controlled
by Tbilisi, this is about 45% of the territory of the unrecognized
republic. Incidentally, there are 45,000 ethnic Abkhaz people in
Abkhazia and there are 55,000 Georgians (he probably means the Megrel
population of the Galsky District) and 65,000 Armenians. We cannot and
will not settle all details for the Abkhaz people, this is dishonest
and incorrect.
Question: Georgia left the mixed controlling commission (SKK) for
resolving the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict. What is offered
in exchange?
Yakobashvili: 2+2+2. Our formula is simple: two communities live
in South Ossetia. One is governed by Eduard Kokoity and the other
one is governed by Dmitry Sanakoev. All Georgian villages, several
Ossetian ones and mixed are under rule of Sanakoev. We do not say who
is more and who is less numerous. However, we cannot speak about the
future of this region without taking into account of opinion of all
parties. Kokoity and Sanakoev - these are two. Georgia and Russia are
the parties concerned - these are two. The OSCE is already present
there in the form of observers and other projects. The European Union
is the biggest donor of post-conflict restoration. These are two. We
propose working in this format and not in the format of SKK where
there are three against one: Russia by itself, Russia in the form of
South Ossetia and Russia in the form of North Ossetia.
Question: Aide to the Deputy US Secretary of State, Mathew Braiza,
visited Sukhumi after a long pause in negotiations on Abkhazia. After
that advisor to the Georgian President, Irakly Alasania, went
there. Afterwards you visited Moscow. There is an impression that
the negotiations are resumed.
Yakobashvili: There are attempts. I think that this is
inevitable. There are rational people in Moscow, Tbilisi and Sukhumi
who understand how it is necessary to negotiate very well. We wish
to have an open dialogue.
by Ivan Sukhov
DEFENSE and SECURITY
May 26, 2008 Monday
Russia
SITUATION IN THE CONFLICT ZONES IN ABKHAZIA AND SOUTH OSSETIA FROM
THE STANDPOINT OF STATE MINISTER OF GEORGIA FOR REINTEGRATION TEMURI
YAKOBASHVILI; Interview of State Minister of Georgia for Reintegration
Temuri Yakobashvili
State Minister of Georgia for Reintegration, Temuri Yakobashvili,
told the observer of Vremya Novostey about his vision of the situation
in the conflict zones in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
Question: The Georgian party proposed a number of initiatives for
resolving the Georgian-Abkhaz conflict. A fantastic version already
appeared in Russia due to the reservations of official comments. This
version said that there were separate negotiations between Georgia
and Abkhazia first and afterwards President of Abkhazia Sergei
Bagapsh flew to Moscow to approve the results in the Russian Foreign
Minister. Bagapsh confirmed the fact of negotiations but said that the
agreement was not achieved. Can you unveil the fog around this topic?
Yakobashvili: The Abkhaz party does not do anything which the Russians
are unaware of. Second, regretfully, agreements with the Abkhaz
party have not been achieved yet. Third, I am not longer surprised
by what the Russian press writes. I can use my own example: when I
flew from here they invented the idea that I planned to organize an
international conference on Abkhazia in Moscow.
Question: What are the results of your visit to Moscow?
Yakobashvili: Well, I did not expect any results from this visit except
for getting acquainted with the people who worked on Abkhazian issues
and to tell them about our vision of the situation and our solution
for the problem.
Question: Do you place some hopes on the new Russian President?
Yakobashvili: So far, we do not know if we can lay any hopes. We hope
that the Russian authorities in general - the new President or new
Prime Minister - will change their approaches to Georgia.
Question: What do you think Russia tries to bargain from Georgia by
its current pressure in the Abkhaz aspect?
Yakobashvili: Russia wants to tear off Abkhazia.
Question: Is this possible?
Yakobashvili: People in Moscow think that it is. People in Moscow
believe that if America "takes" Georgia and Ukraine they need to take
Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Crimea.
Question: Is this the standpoint of officials of the Russian Foreign
Ministry?
Yakobashvili: I do not think that the Foreign Ministry thinks in this
way but they have to formulate and justify all this. I pity officials
of the Russian Foreign Ministry who have to speak about the white
saying that it is black.
Question: Do you think that Russian authorities have received a
conviction that the annexation of Abkhazia from Georgia is possible at
all? The official standpoint has repeated the correct formulation of
the Foreign Ministry that Russia recognizes the territorial integrity
of Georgia for a long time.
Yakobashvili: You see, there is a trait of slyness in these
conversations because people in Moscow have assured me and I am more
than assured myself that Russia will never recognize the independence
of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Russia does not need this and it will
never do this. In my opinion, nothing will come of this. But when
all this is in the hands of the people here, who wish to earn money
there and to dismiss everyone, this is not a state policy.
Question: What is your vision of the ideal way out for the Abkhaz
and South Ossetian situations? What is the goal of the regulation?
Yakobashvili: The goal should look as follows: the Abkhaz and Ossetian
people should have three most important components of any regulation
plan. First, this is physical security. Second, these are guarantees
that their ethnos will be preserved and will develop. Third, these
are guarantees of economic development. These are three main things:
physical, ethnical cultural and economic security.
Question: People in Abkhazia and South Ossetia offer a simple
counter-argument: they have all these three things already. Which of
the things that they do not have does Georgia offer them?
Yakobashvili: First, they do not have this. They do not feel
secure. Otherwise they would not speak about a need to sign an
agreement on non-restarting of hostilities. Second, it seems to me that
the 45,000 population of ethnic Abkhaz people in Abkhazia actually
does not have enough resources to preserve their ethnos. This is an
ethnos that is becoming extinct and has serious healthcare problems
from drug addiction to serious infectious diseases. Only 30% of Abkhaz
people speak the Abkhaz language. Look at Abkhaz newspapers and you
will see that this is rather a stage of survival of the ethnos and
not its development.
I do not think that the Olympics in Sochi will become the decisive
breakthrough moment for the development of the economy of Abkhazia
about which people are talking all the time. These are fairytales. We
see only one thing now: crushed stone, sand and other materials that
are exported or will be exported from Abkhazia for Olympic construction
projects incur irreparable damage on the environment. The Soviet Union
was reinforcing the coast in Sochi and in Abkhazia because everything
was washed away. There is the same problem in Sochi too. It is not
quite clear how they are going to build anything there at all. For
Abkhazia the projects connected with Sochi result in an environmental
disaster of the entire coast.
Question: Which institutional base is Georgia prepared to offer for
implementation of the principles of regulation that you have outlined?
Yakobashvili: We speak about the creation of a post of vice president,
about the right of Abkhaz veto for any issues dealing with this
territory and about a free economic zone. For a part of South Ossetia
we also have plans that we are prepared to discuss with the South
Ossetians including those living in the part that is not controlled
by Tbilisi, this is about 45% of the territory of the unrecognized
republic. Incidentally, there are 45,000 ethnic Abkhaz people in
Abkhazia and there are 55,000 Georgians (he probably means the Megrel
population of the Galsky District) and 65,000 Armenians. We cannot and
will not settle all details for the Abkhaz people, this is dishonest
and incorrect.
Question: Georgia left the mixed controlling commission (SKK) for
resolving the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict. What is offered
in exchange?
Yakobashvili: 2+2+2. Our formula is simple: two communities live
in South Ossetia. One is governed by Eduard Kokoity and the other
one is governed by Dmitry Sanakoev. All Georgian villages, several
Ossetian ones and mixed are under rule of Sanakoev. We do not say who
is more and who is less numerous. However, we cannot speak about the
future of this region without taking into account of opinion of all
parties. Kokoity and Sanakoev - these are two. Georgia and Russia are
the parties concerned - these are two. The OSCE is already present
there in the form of observers and other projects. The European Union
is the biggest donor of post-conflict restoration. These are two. We
propose working in this format and not in the format of SKK where
there are three against one: Russia by itself, Russia in the form of
South Ossetia and Russia in the form of North Ossetia.
Question: Aide to the Deputy US Secretary of State, Mathew Braiza,
visited Sukhumi after a long pause in negotiations on Abkhazia. After
that advisor to the Georgian President, Irakly Alasania, went
there. Afterwards you visited Moscow. There is an impression that
the negotiations are resumed.
Yakobashvili: There are attempts. I think that this is
inevitable. There are rational people in Moscow, Tbilisi and Sukhumi
who understand how it is necessary to negotiate very well. We wish
to have an open dialogue.