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Interview: Turkish President Abdullah Gul

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  • Interview: Turkish President Abdullah Gul

    INTERVIEW: TURKISH PRESIDENT ABDULLAH GUL
    By Ben Lando

    Middle East Times
    Thursday, October 23, 2008
    Egypt

    ANKARA, Turkey, Oct. 22 (UPI) -- Turkey is playing a major role in
    geopolitics side by side with the United States, President Abdullah
    Gul insisted as he took questions from visiting American journalists,
    bloggers and think-tankers.

    Gul painted Turkey as a mediator of sorts. It's creating a space
    to end the territorial dispute between Azerbaijan and Armenia --
    at the same time Turkey and Armenia attempt to move past historical
    allegations of genocide. Gul recently became the first Turkish leader
    to visit Armenia.

    Caucasian calm amid a resurgent Russia is a boon for the United
    States. Gul reaffirmed U.S. ties but urged the next president to
    get "objective" briefings on Turkey -- referring to pressure that
    Washington takes a stand on the genocide claim.

    With the small group of Americans in a conference room in the Turkish
    president's administrative offices, Gul tried to calm reports of
    domestic unrest as well. Turkey has been militantly secular since
    throwing back the Ottoman Empire. But a recent move to allow women to
    wear religious headscarves in the university prompted sharp discussion
    in the streets on the future of the separation of religion and the
    Turkish state.

    Gul also played down the history of Turkey's isolation of its Kurdish
    population from economic progress and liberty, and played up the recent
    attempts at integrating Turkish Kurds into society and politics. He was
    quick to separate the "Kurdish question" from the "PKK question." The
    Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, is labeled a terrorist group by
    Turkey, the United States, Europe and others. It attacked a southeast
    Turkey command post earlier this month, killing or wounding dozens.

    As Turkey responded again by bombing the mountains of northern Iraq,
    where the PKK has camps, Gul said Turkey doesn't want to suppress
    its southern neighbor.

    He said Kurdish leaders such as Jalal Talabani, now Iraq's president,
    and Massoud and Nechirvan Barzani, president and prime minister of
    the Kurdistan Regional Government of Iraq, respectively, have been
    welcomed into Turkey since the times of Saddam Hussein.

    Though Turkey criticizes the national and regional governments in
    Iraq for not doing enough to prevent PKK attacks, Gul said diplomatic
    talks continue. The following day Turkey sent a delegation to Baghdad
    to meet with national and regional leadership in Iraq.

    Q: I would like to follow up on a couple of the points you made. Turkey
    as a mediator: Can you talk a little bit more about mediating with
    Armenia? Do you expect that Turkey will help mediate Armenian pullback
    from Azeri territory outside of Nagorno-Karabakh? Can Turkey help
    resolve this whole problem in the Caucasus? And just one other question
    about mediation: Iraq. You didn't speak too much about Iraq. Can Turkey
    help the United States in finding a formula by which the United States
    can pull back without Iraq collapsing again?

    Gul: Of course, we want to see a solution come about the problems
    between Armenia and Azerbaijan. We sincerely want this, and we are
    ready to contribute to bring about a solution. This issue, when I was
    in Yerevan, it was not introduced by me. ... It was introduced by
    President (Serzh) Sargsyan himself when we were talking. I said at
    the outset that any problems in the Caucasus does not just affect the
    two countries directly involved, I said to him it affects everyone
    in the Caucasus, and I gave him the recent example of conflict
    between Russia and Georgia and I said it's affecting us all. And
    I said to him I believe that as an eruption of a problem affects
    us negatively, I believe that solving any problem in the Caucasus
    affects us positively. I should say that after my visit there
    things have progressed quite significantly. Important work has been
    done. After visiting Armenia I then went on to Azerbaijan a couple
    days later and had important contacts there with my ... counterpart,
    and after that the three foreign ministers actually recently met in
    New York, so there's significant progress being made. ... You will
    notice there are important energy pipelines between Azerbaijan and
    Turkey. Pipelines that transfer oil but also pipelines that transport
    gas, and now we are building a very important railway linking us. In
    all of the ceremonies I've always made it clear, gave the message,
    if you will, in my addresses that once the problems between us are
    solved, these projects are open to Armenia as well.

    Now turning to Iraq: I may not have mentioned Iraq to a significant
    extent in my introductory remarks, but you should know that we did
    a great deal of work on Iraq. We did a great deal of work before the
    war, during the war and after the war. ... One of the most important
    things that we did do, we contributed greatly to the political process
    in Iraq after the war. As you know, the Sunnis had initially decided
    to not take part in the political process in Iraq. I personally had
    them come to Istanbul, all the Sunni groups, even the most radical
    Sunni groups, I had them come to Istanbul on numerous occasions,
    we had a great number of meetings, we worked very hard to convince
    them to take part in the political process in Iraq after the war,
    and we succeeded in this. In fact, (U.S. Ambassador to the United
    Nations Zalmay) Khalilzad, (Iraqi Sunni leader Tariq al-)Hashimi and
    myself, we declared together in Istanbul that the Sunnis had decided
    to take part in the political process. I told the Sunnis while trying
    to convince them ... that if they did not take part in the political
    process in Iraq that is evolving now after the war, I told them the
    rich Sunnis will leave the country and the remaining Sunnis will
    be declared as terrorists. I told them this very clearly. I'm very
    happy to say that we did succeed to convince them, they have joined
    the political process and they are one of the most important groups
    in Iraq today. President Bush, Ms. (Secretary of State Condoleezza)
    Rice and the entire State Department knows what we've done for various
    groups. We invited all the Iraqi politicians, be they Kurdish,
    be they Arab, be they Shia, be they Sunni, we invited them all to
    Turkey, we hosted them here, ... we hosted them all and had them
    undergo political training, exercises and education, if you will,
    they saw how our democracy works, how political parties are formed,
    how political parties and democracy function. I personally must have
    spent hours and hours talking to all of the Iraqi leaders individually.

    Also economically, we continuously aid Iraq. We never interrupted
    this aid at any point. Approximately 4,000 trailers of larger rigs
    of aid and materials are transported into Iraq from Turkey every day
    today. These go to address the most important needs of the Iraqi people
    but also the coalition forces in Iraq. Our embassy in Baghdad, this
    embassy was never closed, not at any point, not before, not during,
    not after the war. This embassy always remained open. Our embassy
    was bombed -- I should say here that our embassy was one of the very
    few that remained open in Baghdad -- our embassy was bombed, our
    ambassador was almost killed on a number of occasions, and it was only
    the armored car that saved his life from this assassination attempt,
    and at no point did we close our embassy, our embassy remained open,
    our flag remains hoisted and certainly during the worst time, when very
    few embassies are open in Baghdad and our embassy was open, there was
    no Arab embassies open, our embassy was open. And there is something
    that most people do not know, and that is that after the United
    States, Turkey is the country that has sacrificed most of its lives
    in Iraq. Over 150 of our truck drivers were (inaudible, but he said
    they were killed), and not at any point did we consider interrupting
    the flow of the humanitarian needs that the Iraqi people have.

    Many tend to think that Turkey has some sort of aim of suppressing
    northern Iraq. That is not the case. If we desired to do so, we could
    do so easily. Just halting supplies that are carried by those 4,000
    trucks daily will be enough, just closing our borders to Iraq ... that
    would work. But that is not what we intend to do, that is not what
    we want to do. Quite the contrary, we aid them in many ways. Just
    one example would be that we actually supply northern Iraq with 25
    percent of its electricity. And beyond that, when you go there, if
    you see a vibrant economy, you have to understand that this is in
    great part to Turkish companies that are there, and to the Turkish
    ... businessmen that are doing business and are helping there.

    Q: You've pointed out the extraordinary growth in the American-Turkish
    agenda. There's so much more to talk about than there's ever been,
    certainly in my experience of over 20 years. First question: If
    you were meeting the next (U.S.) president tomorrow, what would
    you say had to be done in Turkish-American relations, what would
    you focus on, what would you tell him is most necessary? My second
    question relates to Turkey internally, because what happens to Turkey
    internally is very important in terms of Turkey's role in the world,
    its effectiveness. You have the only non-political position in Turkey,
    as president. Everybody else has a political affiliation, who they work
    for. And Turkey has, at least I think everybody will agree, a heavily
    polarized political situation, in which the heavy polarization makes
    it difficult to solve critical problems. I don't mean to say you will
    not solve them, but it makes it difficult. How can you reduce this
    polarity, how can it be changed, so instead of arguing at the end of
    the day about what appears in newspapers, that this gulf in Turkish
    life is reduced?

    Gul: If I were to meet the (U.S.) president, I would tell
    him to understand the value and the importance of Turkey
    objectively. Understand it without the interference and objection of
    certain lobbies, get good briefings on this issue, I would tell him
    that. I would also tell him that Turkey and the United States and
    the work we do is very important for the region, for stability in
    the region but also stability in the world. I would say that we've
    done good things together so far, and I would say let's continue to
    work together, let's continue to bring about peace and stability,
    let's do so in a spirit of trust, in a spirit of mutual respect. Again
    I'd tell him to get good briefings on the importance of Turkey. You
    will notice, as well, that Turkey is a country that is going after
    its transformation. And this is a transformation that is breaking
    very well-established goals in our country. This transformation is
    primarily about more democracy; it's about keeping it and strengthening
    our democracy in our country. In this context there is a very vibrant
    discussion that is ongoing in Turkey, and some, perhaps because they
    fear the loss of their prior status, are engaged in this vibrant
    discussion. And some are engaged in this vibrant discussion because
    they are genuinely concerned for the future. ... Looked at from abroad,
    I understand it might be the case where the perception is there is
    a far divide within the country, I understand that. But I also think
    that this is not so. I do disagree. Let's look at some examples. For
    example, one of the points that was brought up as the divide in Turkey
    is the Kurdish question. If you look at Turkish history and see how
    things really are and see our positions, this sharp divide never
    existed between Turks and Kurds and doesn't exist today, keeping the
    PKK out, they're terrorists. Turning to another one, the discussion
    that surrounds secularism in the country. In the official circles,
    this is, of course, a very heated and long-debated issue. But if you
    turn to look at what's transpiring on the streets, between family and
    between friends, all coexist with the issue of the headscarf. Those
    that wear a headscarf, those that don't, are in the same families,
    they walk hand in hand, are friends, so there is no real sharp divide
    or polarization, if you will, on this issue in society, but on the
    cultural front there is, because this is made to be material for
    politics. ... Certain professors who are in the position of being
    administrators in universities, they might have an issue with the
    headscarf on one side or the other side. But the students that are in
    the classes in those universities, be it the ones wearing a headscarf
    or wish to wear a headscarf or ones that are wearing a miniskirt,
    these female students have no issue, they don't have any issues with
    the positions on this topic nor do they have an issue with each other,
    and you'll see them hand in hand outside of the school cafeteria
    or hamburger store, sharing their food and giving each other their
    sandwiches. So for these students there's nothing polarizing.

    Q: A couple of questions getting back to northern Iraq and the PKK
    issue: What specifically do you want from the Iraqi government,
    from the northern regional government, from the United States, in
    this area? What is it that Turkey is asking for specifically? And
    also can you confirm that there have been talks between Turkey and
    the northern regional government and that a representative from the
    northern regional government will be coming to Turkey for talks?

    Gul: Here's something I would like to stress: Today in Turkey there
    is no justification for terror. If you look just into this room,
    the Turkish citizens who are sitting here with you, there might be
    some that are of Kurdish origin here, this is not known, this is
    not something that we dwell on, there is no division, there's no
    labeling of who is of what ethnic origin in Turkey, be it Kurdish
    or other. That is the way it is in Turkey, that's the way it's
    always been. Nobody defines themselves or is excluded according
    to their ethnic origin. And also, no matter what ethnic origin --
    specifically from the president to the speaker of the Parliament to
    the prime minister, indeed all these high posts were held by people
    and are still held by people who define themselves to be of Kurdish
    origin. Today in our Parliament, we have about 150 parliamentarians who
    are known and label themselves to be of Kurdish origin. And also there
    are many persons who are of Kurdish origin who also head ministries
    in this government today. Now getting back to your initial statement,
    the real problem that we had on this issue, as well as other issues,
    is one where we had a serious lack of democracy, and this reflected on
    this issue and other issues in our country. And that is something that
    we have addressed. Certainly the Kurdish issue is not ... because of
    a more racist outlook on the issue, but one where there wasn't enough
    democracy. Today, you can have books printed in Kurdish, you can have
    televisions that broadcast in Kurdish, you can have billboards posted
    in Kurdish, you can have newspapers that are published in Kurdish,
    and if you wish you can have a school that educates in Kurdish. Now
    all of this was forbidden. Of course, the Kurdish issue and terror,
    we divide and separate these when we're talking.

    Now on Iraq: Of course, there's a significant Kurdish population
    there. But there is something I wish to ask if you knew this or
    not: During the time of Saddam and also during the war, Mr. (Jalal)
    Talabani, (Massoud) Barzani, Nechirvan (Barzani), they all traveled
    on Turkish diplomatic passports. They used these passports that
    we gave them to go anywhere in the world, to attend conferences in
    Washington, D.C. ... And even today as we speak, both political parties
    of Talabani and Barzani have permanent offices and representation in
    Turkey and representatives who work in their offices in Turkey. And
    these political parties that are in Turkey are not new; they were here
    before the war and were here after the war. Also after the war, before
    Talabani was elected president, Mr. Talabani, Mr. Barzani, Nechirvan,
    they all traveled to Turkey and we had intensive meetings with them
    here, and our foreign minister had meetings with them here, and also
    our prime minister had meetings with them. There is something that
    I should stress is our people are angry and they are angry because
    PKK terrorists, just because they're ethnically Kurdish, are given
    camps and the opportunity to be harbored in northern Iraq, simply
    because they're Kurdish. These terrorists then from these camps and
    all the opportunities afforded to them in northern Iraq, stage attacks
    against another country, in this case Turkey. This sort of behavior
    is angering us. When I talked to President Bush in our meetings, I
    asked him how would you feel if there were terrorist camps that were
    allowed to exist on the Mexican side of your border with Mexico, how
    would you feel if these camps were allowed to exist there and then the
    terrorists in those camps were allowed to stage attacks inside United
    States territory from these camps. Now we take these concerns to the
    Iraqis and the government in northern Iraq. We gave them our concerns,
    and we see now that they're trying to understand our concerns and we're
    pleased to see that they understand our concerns. It's important that
    we communicate to them that there are problems, there are problems that
    are arising from their region and there's no problem in doing this,
    there's no problem telling them that if they don't have the necessary
    force, necessary organization to deal with these problems in their
    territories, we are ready to help them, to provide the necessary
    assistance, there's no problem discussing it here. Frankly, what
    is transpiring now with these attacks is something that poisons the
    potential for so much good that Turkey can do in northern Iraq. ... And
    I do believe that the PKK stepping up their attacks now on Turkish
    territory is something that is directly poisoning relations between
    us so we can't take these relations any further."
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