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news.az, Azerbaijan
Dec 5 2009
I have confidence in the democratic responsibilities of Presidents
Sat 05 December 2009 | 06:51 GMT Text size:
Walter Schwimmer News.Az interviews Walter Schwimmer, Former
Secretary-General of the Council of Europe (1999-2004).
Council of Europe celebrates its 60-th anniversary. Did it succeed to
become one of the strongest international organizations?
The 60th anniversary is the celebration of 60 years of successful
activities for pluralist democracy, rule of law and human rights. The
achievements are many and important, starting with the European
Convention on Human Rights and the establishment of a supra-national
European Court of Human Rights. The guidance of the new democracies
after the big change 1989/1990 in a difficult and still not completed
process of transition is a historical merit of the Council of Europe.
Even when the Council today seems to be overshadowed by the European
Union - the European Union would not be there without the preceding
Council of Europe and the new EU-members of 2004 and 2007 - 10 former
communist countries or even Soviet republics - would not have
fulfilled the Copenhagen Criteria of EU-membership which are exactly
the basic principles of the Council of Europe. Therefore it is not a
coincidence that the European Union uses the flag and the anthem of
the Council of Europe as its symbols too.
Don't you think that there's a need of reforms in CoE to make its
decision more effective?
The Council of Europe has always to adapt its structures and
procedures to new circumstances.
I see three main goals in order to improve the Council's efficiency:
First, member states should realize that the conflict preventing
activities of the Council of Europe are much cheaper than any measures
of conflict solution. But the budget of the Council did so far not
reflect its enlarged membership of 47 states.
Secondly, the excellent tools to monitor the implementation of the
basic principles of the Council in the member states - not only the
Parliamentary Assembly, but also the Committee of Ministers and
several committees, like the Anti Torture Committee or the Commission
against Racism and Intolerance should be combined and used in a more
comprehensive way to assist the member countries to comply with the
principles.
And thirdly, after the change of the European Economic Community to a
Political Union which is composed by already more than half of the
Council's member states (27 out of 47) there is a need of a clear
definition of the relations of the two organizations, including access
of the Union to main conventions of the Council such as the Human
Rights Convention, the Social Charter and the European Cultural
Convention. As proposed by Luxembourg's Prime Minister Jean-Claude
Juncker, the Union itself should become a member of the Council of
Europe within its competences as defined by the Treaty of Lisbon.
But you are right, we should also look at the decision making process.
Not foreseen in the Statute, which knows majority decisions, there is
an agreement to adopt decisions at the level of ministers' deputies,
i.e. the ambassadors, to decide only unanimously which means a
cumbersome way to reach an agreement among 47! Of course, the
Non-EU-members are scared to be overruled automatically by an
EU-majority. So to be more flexible in the decision making process,
one could consider an agreement, that decisions not taken unanimously
would need a double majority - a majority of members as well as
majority among the Non-EU-members.
Former head of the Russian delegation in PACE D.Rogozin once said that
without post-Soviet states CoE would discuss only problems with rights
of pets and sexual minorities. Do you agree that membership of CIS
countries made the discussions more actual and urgent?
This a narrow view with which I cannot agree. Main achievements and
activities of the Council have nothing to do with East and West,
CIS-countries and the "other" part of Europe.
May I refer to the Biomedicine-Convention, the Cybercrime-Convention,
the fight against corruption which is not only a problem of the new
democracies. I can speak about actions against violence against women
and children - unfortunately not "minority" questions. Migration
issues concern the countries of origin, of transit and of destination.
The Council is dealing with these questions as well as with the fight
against trafficking in human beings - where the shame is to be put
more on the countries of destination. Intercultural and
Inter-religious matters are on the agenda of the Council and are more
actual than ever after the Swiss referendum. So the Council is needed
by the whole of Europe!
Do you thing that Azerbaijan has significantly changed during these
almost 8 years in CoE?
Yes, of course. There are still changes necessary, but the transition
from a Soviet and a post-Soviet system to a full-fledged European
democracy is a long and sometimes cumbersome way. But Azerbaijan has
decided 8 years ago to go that way and I am proud that I could
accompany the country during the first three years. The full
transition does not only request legal changes, but also changes in
the mentality.
And when people in Azerbaijan are now aware of democratic freedoms and
human rights, we can see the change in mentality.
Or to give you another example: when I came first to Baku I was shown
the terrible conditions under which the refugees from the occupied
territories had to live. In the meantime they could move to temporary
houses - not used a tool in the political struggle, but treated as
human beings in need. This is a significant change.
Does the membership of Azerbaijan and Armenia helps to solve the
Karabakh problem?
The joint admission of both countries was intended to contribute to
reconciliation among them and to help other international
organisations, like OSCE and its Minsk group in their endeavours.
Certainly one may have expected more progress since both countries
belong together to the Council of Europe.
On the other hand one can see that both sides so far stayed away from
military means and continued in their efforts to achieve a peaceful
solution. Like President Heydar Aliyev and President Kocharian met at
the occasion of the admission to the Council of Europe, also today's
presidents are meeting and trying to find a compromise which will be
accepted by both peoples.
I have confidence in the democratic responsibility of President Ilham
Aliyev and President Serzh Sargsyan and hope they will not only
continue to have a constructive dialogue but will find the way for a
peaceful solution which both peoples desperately deserve.
U.M.
News.Az
Dec 5 2009
I have confidence in the democratic responsibilities of Presidents
Sat 05 December 2009 | 06:51 GMT Text size:
Walter Schwimmer News.Az interviews Walter Schwimmer, Former
Secretary-General of the Council of Europe (1999-2004).
Council of Europe celebrates its 60-th anniversary. Did it succeed to
become one of the strongest international organizations?
The 60th anniversary is the celebration of 60 years of successful
activities for pluralist democracy, rule of law and human rights. The
achievements are many and important, starting with the European
Convention on Human Rights and the establishment of a supra-national
European Court of Human Rights. The guidance of the new democracies
after the big change 1989/1990 in a difficult and still not completed
process of transition is a historical merit of the Council of Europe.
Even when the Council today seems to be overshadowed by the European
Union - the European Union would not be there without the preceding
Council of Europe and the new EU-members of 2004 and 2007 - 10 former
communist countries or even Soviet republics - would not have
fulfilled the Copenhagen Criteria of EU-membership which are exactly
the basic principles of the Council of Europe. Therefore it is not a
coincidence that the European Union uses the flag and the anthem of
the Council of Europe as its symbols too.
Don't you think that there's a need of reforms in CoE to make its
decision more effective?
The Council of Europe has always to adapt its structures and
procedures to new circumstances.
I see three main goals in order to improve the Council's efficiency:
First, member states should realize that the conflict preventing
activities of the Council of Europe are much cheaper than any measures
of conflict solution. But the budget of the Council did so far not
reflect its enlarged membership of 47 states.
Secondly, the excellent tools to monitor the implementation of the
basic principles of the Council in the member states - not only the
Parliamentary Assembly, but also the Committee of Ministers and
several committees, like the Anti Torture Committee or the Commission
against Racism and Intolerance should be combined and used in a more
comprehensive way to assist the member countries to comply with the
principles.
And thirdly, after the change of the European Economic Community to a
Political Union which is composed by already more than half of the
Council's member states (27 out of 47) there is a need of a clear
definition of the relations of the two organizations, including access
of the Union to main conventions of the Council such as the Human
Rights Convention, the Social Charter and the European Cultural
Convention. As proposed by Luxembourg's Prime Minister Jean-Claude
Juncker, the Union itself should become a member of the Council of
Europe within its competences as defined by the Treaty of Lisbon.
But you are right, we should also look at the decision making process.
Not foreseen in the Statute, which knows majority decisions, there is
an agreement to adopt decisions at the level of ministers' deputies,
i.e. the ambassadors, to decide only unanimously which means a
cumbersome way to reach an agreement among 47! Of course, the
Non-EU-members are scared to be overruled automatically by an
EU-majority. So to be more flexible in the decision making process,
one could consider an agreement, that decisions not taken unanimously
would need a double majority - a majority of members as well as
majority among the Non-EU-members.
Former head of the Russian delegation in PACE D.Rogozin once said that
without post-Soviet states CoE would discuss only problems with rights
of pets and sexual minorities. Do you agree that membership of CIS
countries made the discussions more actual and urgent?
This a narrow view with which I cannot agree. Main achievements and
activities of the Council have nothing to do with East and West,
CIS-countries and the "other" part of Europe.
May I refer to the Biomedicine-Convention, the Cybercrime-Convention,
the fight against corruption which is not only a problem of the new
democracies. I can speak about actions against violence against women
and children - unfortunately not "minority" questions. Migration
issues concern the countries of origin, of transit and of destination.
The Council is dealing with these questions as well as with the fight
against trafficking in human beings - where the shame is to be put
more on the countries of destination. Intercultural and
Inter-religious matters are on the agenda of the Council and are more
actual than ever after the Swiss referendum. So the Council is needed
by the whole of Europe!
Do you thing that Azerbaijan has significantly changed during these
almost 8 years in CoE?
Yes, of course. There are still changes necessary, but the transition
from a Soviet and a post-Soviet system to a full-fledged European
democracy is a long and sometimes cumbersome way. But Azerbaijan has
decided 8 years ago to go that way and I am proud that I could
accompany the country during the first three years. The full
transition does not only request legal changes, but also changes in
the mentality.
And when people in Azerbaijan are now aware of democratic freedoms and
human rights, we can see the change in mentality.
Or to give you another example: when I came first to Baku I was shown
the terrible conditions under which the refugees from the occupied
territories had to live. In the meantime they could move to temporary
houses - not used a tool in the political struggle, but treated as
human beings in need. This is a significant change.
Does the membership of Azerbaijan and Armenia helps to solve the
Karabakh problem?
The joint admission of both countries was intended to contribute to
reconciliation among them and to help other international
organisations, like OSCE and its Minsk group in their endeavours.
Certainly one may have expected more progress since both countries
belong together to the Council of Europe.
On the other hand one can see that both sides so far stayed away from
military means and continued in their efforts to achieve a peaceful
solution. Like President Heydar Aliyev and President Kocharian met at
the occasion of the admission to the Council of Europe, also today's
presidents are meeting and trying to find a compromise which will be
accepted by both peoples.
I have confidence in the democratic responsibility of President Ilham
Aliyev and President Serzh Sargsyan and hope they will not only
continue to have a constructive dialogue but will find the way for a
peaceful solution which both peoples desperately deserve.
U.M.
News.Az