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Today's Zaman, Turkey
Jan 4 2009
`Turkey has already apologized to the Armenians,' USAK head says
Human rights violations during the forced deportation of Armenians
during World War I did not go unpunished, a senior analyst at the
International Strategic Research Organization (ISRO/USAK) in Ankara
has said.
In an interview with Sunday's Zaman, ISRO/USAK Chairman Professor
Sedat Laçiner, commented on recent developments, with
particular reference to the apology campaign launched by a group of
Turkish intellectuals and said no apology was needed on the matter. He
explained his viewpoint on the entire Armenian issue to Sunday's
Zaman.
You described this initiative as sabotage of the gradually improving
relations between Turkey and Armenia. Isn't this an exaggeration?
My statement was not exactly like that; but I should note that I did
not like this campaign. First, there is a problem regarding the
timing. If this were initiated last year in an attempt to force both
societies to take some action, maybe we would not have this problem
right now. But currently there is no need for this. At a time when
there is rapprochement between the two societies, this campaign
prepared the ground on which people like Canan Arıtman and
radical groups will raise their voices. The Dashnaks [an Armenian
ultranationalist group] on the Armenian side now say, "Well, why do
you need a dialogue process now? These guys have just come to your
terms; they are about to admit their fault. Just be patient for a few
years; Obama also took office; you should consider this, as well." The
Dashnaks were opposed to dialogue; they were isolated. You should also
note that [Armenian President Serzh] Sarksyan is also a radical; but
he has come to this point: "If we fail to have an agreement with the
Turks, we can't ensure Armenia's survival." They inevitably have to
maintain good ties with Turkey.
For economic reasons?
Both economic and political. Armenia is a landlocked country bordering
Turkey. They do not have good relations with Iran, Azerbaijan, Turkey
or Georgia. Russia is unable to fulfill their expectations. The
opening of the border gate with Turkey is important because it is like
the trachea. For this reason, they have to have good relations with
Turkey even if they don't want to. They did not change their views
with respect to the genocide claims; the intention and goal of this
campaign should be clarified. The signatories include names who hold
views endorsed by the Dashnaks.
Are you implying that they have been manipulated?
Maybe. Because the issue is about to lose its status as a taboo, every
step is being discussed extensively. They should have known that there
would be such a strong reaction. If they apologize for the sufferings
of the Armenians without mentioning the pains of the Turks, I would
have difficulty believing that they are really intellectuals. Second,
the state should have acted smartly on this issue. There was no need
for the prime minister's counterstatement. This is not a situation
where the General Staff needs to make a statement. It is not a
scientific board; it is not a party to the Armenian problem. It is not
the supreme body that represents the state. Its statement did not
contribute to the ongoing discussion. Both parties need to
empathize. We are talking about over 1 million Muslims killed during
the same period. Some of these people were tortured to death by
Armenians.
There have been some allegations suggesting that Armenians assaulted
Muslims only after the events in 1915, implying that there were no
such offenses committed by Armenians before the deportations.
Such serious ignorance is possible only if you study a lot, because
the Armenian events started in the second half of the 19th
century. The 1915 events are the final scenes of the movie. You cannot
possibly understand the whole story by taking a look at the final
scene, nor can you offer an apology based on this. An edition of The
New York Times from 1895 talks about 200,000 heavily armed Armenians
taking action against the state. The movement had already developed
aspirations for independence.
Is not it possible that the larger Armenian community still remained
unarmed?
Of course; but if you consider this figure with their children and
relatives added, you will conclude that there was a wholesale
insurgency and that a substantial part of Armenian society was
armed. While this war was fought, Muslim communities, including Turks
and Kurds, suffered a lot. In some places blood feuds erupted between
Kurds and Armenians.
Is there nothing positive about this campaign?
There is something in such campaigns that makes me happy. Turkey is
not the most democratic country in the world, but we have started to
become one because of the Armenian issue. I mean you cannot start a
similar campaign in Armenia. A Turk cannot do research in historical
archives in Armenia. And it isn't just Armenia; if you go to
Switzerland and you are asked, "What do you think about the Armenian
genocide?" and if you reply that you do not think there was such a
crime in the past, you will be prosecuted and convicted in court. This
is also the case in France. You can lose your job if you deny the
genocide claims in the US. There is only one country in the world
where the Armenian issue can be discussed and that is Turkey. This
pleases me.
How has Turkey apologized?
There were serious human rights violations during the deportations
committed by Turkish security forces. If you displace more than
800,000 people from their homes and take them to a distant place, they
will liquidate their assets; they will take the money. Imagine that
they travel on foot. Most of them are carrying valuable jewelry. The
state assigned two guards per 1,000 people. These guards had primitive
weapons. In the end, people faced assaults.
What was the Ä°stanbul government doing during this period?
Even during the deportation process the government in Ä°stanbul
seriously considered criticism. It took effective action against even
relatively insignificant violations. It demanded the necessary
punishment for offenses committed during this period. Courts were set
up to prosecute the offenders. More than 1,000 suspects -- about 500
were police officers, military officers and members of secret services
-- were effectively prosecuted. Sixty-seven of them were
executed. These included high-level military officers and district
administrators removed from office.
What was the number of defendants executed in the Nuremberg trials?
The number of execution verdicts at the trials set up in the aftermath
of the Holocaust was 12. Let us assume there was a genocide committed
by Turks. A court was set up to prosecute the offenders; 67 people
were executed based on the rulings issued by this court. We also know
that a number of other defendants were given other sentences,
including exile. In addition, the trials were further extended in 1919
because of pressure by the British. A war court was set up to deal
with this matter. This court ruled for the execution of two governors
and one district governor; these three people were apprehended. I give
this example because these were important figures. Many others were
arrested, including the gendarmerie commander of Yozgat. The former
Diyarbakır governor fled. He was surrounded in
BeÅ?iktaÅ?. He killed himself when he realized that he
would get caught. During the reign of the cabinet of Damat Ferit
PaÅ?a, the district governor of BoÄ?azlıyan was
executed based on false evidence and unsubstantiated allegations.
An Armenian general is needed in the Turkish army
So efforts of the Ottoman Empire did not satisfy Armenian demands¦
I should note that almost every member of the cabinet that made the
deportation decision, including the foreign minister and the interior
minister, were assassinated in Berlin, Georgia and other places in
1921 and 1922. So who was left to execute? What has been left to
apologize for? And ASALA [the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation
of Armenia] resorted to terror attacks for the same reason in the
1970s and 1980s. My grandfather was not involved in such actions -- I
should note that his father was killed by the security forces, just
like the Armenians killed during the deportations -- how could I
apologize for the alleged genocide? The Ä°stanbul government
admitted its faults and took action to punish the offenses. It even
took excessive measures to deal with human rights violations. We know
that a private who stole the watch of an Armenian was summarily
executed. What has been left behind?
But they say they do not have territorial aspirations.
Armenian authorities do not openly declare that they recognize
Turkey's borders. I ask them why they avoid such recognition. They
tell me if they do so, they will have made a compromise. What will you
give in return in the negotiations? You do not expect anything from
your neighbor in return for recognizing its borders. In return, your
neighbor also recognizes your borders. If you do not recognize your
neighbor's home, this is a justification and reason for war.
Will demands for material reparations and indemnities be voiced by the
Armenians?
Reparations for damages will be demanded even before territorial
claims. They are already studying this matter. The AXA insurance
company makes payments to the descendants of Armenians who died during
deportation, alleging that they were subjected to genocide. For
instance, the total amount of reparations paid by Germany to Israel
because of the Holocaust was about $100 billion. If you consider the
rate of inflation, this becomes a huge figure, approaching $1
trillion.
Is it obvious that Turkey will not pay this amount?
Not that obvious. Why shouldn't you pay this amount? If this is a
crime and you admit that you actually committed it, you have to. Do
you avoid payment of the reparations when the EU or the European Court
of Human Rights rules for such a payment?
How many Armenians did Turks rescue during the deportations?
A substantial part of the male deportees were militants. There were
many incidents where their relatives and families did have difficult
times. Men were primarily targeted during the attacks. Children and
the elderly had to suffer the consequences. Local people took action
to keep the orphans or the widows with them. This is an Islamic
tradition. This is an Ottoman tradition. Westerners cannot understand
this. In some cases, the guy just wanted a beautiful Armenian girl
whose husband died. Some marriages were built based on this motive.
Isn't this assimilation, even if it is done out of humanitarian
concerns?
If you ask this to Western people, this is genocide, because you are
trying to assimilate the Armenian population. However, Serbs raped
about 30,000 women during the civil war in Bosnia and Herzegovina but
did not marry any of these victims. And they did not accept the
children as their own. But there is something different here. These
people did not see the Armenians as dirty and inferior. They made
these women their wives. They had kids. They took these kids as their
own and embraced these women as their wives.
But they converted them to Islam¦
In that case, you accept your husband's religion as your religion. But
this Islamization is something like this: There were many Armenian
women who did not actually perform their religious duties, though they
looked pretty religious. There were some others who did not have much
information about Islam. They believed in God. The Armenian people
were not atheists. These marriages took place at early ages. And they
died as Muslims. There are many Armenian converts that fall into this
category.
Is there any research on this subject?
Yes, there is. There are memoirs by the adopted Armenians. There are a
few journalistic accounts on this matter. Scholarly research is about
to proliferate, however. I do not know the exact number. The husbands
did not admit their wives were Armenian. These people got old; they
are dying. This era is about to be over. And then there is this issue
of the adoptees; there are many orphans because their parents
died. Kazım Karabekir PaÅ?a devoted tireless efforts. In
addition, old couples took in these orphans. You can hear these
stories in every town. We know that a substantial number of them were
Armenians. For instance, in some places people have names like Ahmet
or Mehmet, but they are called "Unbeliever Ahmet" or "Unbeliever
Mehmet" because they are known as Armenians. There are people who
never observed daily prayers and who looked Muslim even though they
never practiced Islam in their personal lives. But, of course, there
are real Muslims, as well.
And there are Armenians who are disconnected with their original
identity and now consider themselves to be Turks and Muslims?
Yes, there are. There is no need to speculate about their lives,
however. There are thousands of such people. We have a whole different
group: This group was deliberately kept out of the deportation
schedule in the East and Southeast. About 350,000 Armenians returned
after the deportation. Among those who were concerned for their lives,
some announced they had converted to Islam. The village where they
lived was all Muslim, but they did not quite observe the religious
rituals. They did not have mosques. In some cases they built mosques
to prove their Islamic identity. But their worship was not like the
regular kind performed by Sunnis. Most of them asserted that they were
Alevi Muslim. Some of them totally changed their registration records
in an attempt to hide their Armenian identity. I mean, when they moved
to Ä°zmir or Ä°stanbul, they first took their record to
Rize and then Afyon. There are people who changed their registration
records seven or eight times. Normally when Turkish people change
their cities or residences, they keep their registration logs. And
amongst such people, some Armenians moved up to high-level official
positions.
Unfortunately, the republican regime did not have a good record on
this matter¦
Yes, you are right. Actually, there were Armenian deputies in
Parliament in the 1950s. Of course, there is also now a population
problem. If you nominate an Armenian candidate, where will he get
elected? But the state needs to do this: For instance, there should be
an Armenian general. That's what Western societies do. They pick a
black person, a woman or a member of a disadvantaged group. For
instance, there are many Turkish police officers in Germany. They also
appoint one of them as a supervisor. This will serve as a message to
the community. ¦ There should be an Armenian general in Turkey.
But you are talking about having a general in the army. Isn't there a
thorough procedure during admission into military schools in which the
past and identity of the candidates are investigated?
Yes, you are right. There is a background search, and I am fine with
that. You should pick somebody just because he is Armenian. You make
him a general because he is an Armenian; not because of his
talents. The same should be done with respect to women; there should
be a female general. We need such symbolic messages.
04 January 2009, Sunday
NURÄ°YE AKMAN Ä°STANBUL
Jan 4 2009
`Turkey has already apologized to the Armenians,' USAK head says
Human rights violations during the forced deportation of Armenians
during World War I did not go unpunished, a senior analyst at the
International Strategic Research Organization (ISRO/USAK) in Ankara
has said.
In an interview with Sunday's Zaman, ISRO/USAK Chairman Professor
Sedat Laçiner, commented on recent developments, with
particular reference to the apology campaign launched by a group of
Turkish intellectuals and said no apology was needed on the matter. He
explained his viewpoint on the entire Armenian issue to Sunday's
Zaman.
You described this initiative as sabotage of the gradually improving
relations between Turkey and Armenia. Isn't this an exaggeration?
My statement was not exactly like that; but I should note that I did
not like this campaign. First, there is a problem regarding the
timing. If this were initiated last year in an attempt to force both
societies to take some action, maybe we would not have this problem
right now. But currently there is no need for this. At a time when
there is rapprochement between the two societies, this campaign
prepared the ground on which people like Canan Arıtman and
radical groups will raise their voices. The Dashnaks [an Armenian
ultranationalist group] on the Armenian side now say, "Well, why do
you need a dialogue process now? These guys have just come to your
terms; they are about to admit their fault. Just be patient for a few
years; Obama also took office; you should consider this, as well." The
Dashnaks were opposed to dialogue; they were isolated. You should also
note that [Armenian President Serzh] Sarksyan is also a radical; but
he has come to this point: "If we fail to have an agreement with the
Turks, we can't ensure Armenia's survival." They inevitably have to
maintain good ties with Turkey.
For economic reasons?
Both economic and political. Armenia is a landlocked country bordering
Turkey. They do not have good relations with Iran, Azerbaijan, Turkey
or Georgia. Russia is unable to fulfill their expectations. The
opening of the border gate with Turkey is important because it is like
the trachea. For this reason, they have to have good relations with
Turkey even if they don't want to. They did not change their views
with respect to the genocide claims; the intention and goal of this
campaign should be clarified. The signatories include names who hold
views endorsed by the Dashnaks.
Are you implying that they have been manipulated?
Maybe. Because the issue is about to lose its status as a taboo, every
step is being discussed extensively. They should have known that there
would be such a strong reaction. If they apologize for the sufferings
of the Armenians without mentioning the pains of the Turks, I would
have difficulty believing that they are really intellectuals. Second,
the state should have acted smartly on this issue. There was no need
for the prime minister's counterstatement. This is not a situation
where the General Staff needs to make a statement. It is not a
scientific board; it is not a party to the Armenian problem. It is not
the supreme body that represents the state. Its statement did not
contribute to the ongoing discussion. Both parties need to
empathize. We are talking about over 1 million Muslims killed during
the same period. Some of these people were tortured to death by
Armenians.
There have been some allegations suggesting that Armenians assaulted
Muslims only after the events in 1915, implying that there were no
such offenses committed by Armenians before the deportations.
Such serious ignorance is possible only if you study a lot, because
the Armenian events started in the second half of the 19th
century. The 1915 events are the final scenes of the movie. You cannot
possibly understand the whole story by taking a look at the final
scene, nor can you offer an apology based on this. An edition of The
New York Times from 1895 talks about 200,000 heavily armed Armenians
taking action against the state. The movement had already developed
aspirations for independence.
Is not it possible that the larger Armenian community still remained
unarmed?
Of course; but if you consider this figure with their children and
relatives added, you will conclude that there was a wholesale
insurgency and that a substantial part of Armenian society was
armed. While this war was fought, Muslim communities, including Turks
and Kurds, suffered a lot. In some places blood feuds erupted between
Kurds and Armenians.
Is there nothing positive about this campaign?
There is something in such campaigns that makes me happy. Turkey is
not the most democratic country in the world, but we have started to
become one because of the Armenian issue. I mean you cannot start a
similar campaign in Armenia. A Turk cannot do research in historical
archives in Armenia. And it isn't just Armenia; if you go to
Switzerland and you are asked, "What do you think about the Armenian
genocide?" and if you reply that you do not think there was such a
crime in the past, you will be prosecuted and convicted in court. This
is also the case in France. You can lose your job if you deny the
genocide claims in the US. There is only one country in the world
where the Armenian issue can be discussed and that is Turkey. This
pleases me.
How has Turkey apologized?
There were serious human rights violations during the deportations
committed by Turkish security forces. If you displace more than
800,000 people from their homes and take them to a distant place, they
will liquidate their assets; they will take the money. Imagine that
they travel on foot. Most of them are carrying valuable jewelry. The
state assigned two guards per 1,000 people. These guards had primitive
weapons. In the end, people faced assaults.
What was the Ä°stanbul government doing during this period?
Even during the deportation process the government in Ä°stanbul
seriously considered criticism. It took effective action against even
relatively insignificant violations. It demanded the necessary
punishment for offenses committed during this period. Courts were set
up to prosecute the offenders. More than 1,000 suspects -- about 500
were police officers, military officers and members of secret services
-- were effectively prosecuted. Sixty-seven of them were
executed. These included high-level military officers and district
administrators removed from office.
What was the number of defendants executed in the Nuremberg trials?
The number of execution verdicts at the trials set up in the aftermath
of the Holocaust was 12. Let us assume there was a genocide committed
by Turks. A court was set up to prosecute the offenders; 67 people
were executed based on the rulings issued by this court. We also know
that a number of other defendants were given other sentences,
including exile. In addition, the trials were further extended in 1919
because of pressure by the British. A war court was set up to deal
with this matter. This court ruled for the execution of two governors
and one district governor; these three people were apprehended. I give
this example because these were important figures. Many others were
arrested, including the gendarmerie commander of Yozgat. The former
Diyarbakır governor fled. He was surrounded in
BeÅ?iktaÅ?. He killed himself when he realized that he
would get caught. During the reign of the cabinet of Damat Ferit
PaÅ?a, the district governor of BoÄ?azlıyan was
executed based on false evidence and unsubstantiated allegations.
An Armenian general is needed in the Turkish army
So efforts of the Ottoman Empire did not satisfy Armenian demands¦
I should note that almost every member of the cabinet that made the
deportation decision, including the foreign minister and the interior
minister, were assassinated in Berlin, Georgia and other places in
1921 and 1922. So who was left to execute? What has been left to
apologize for? And ASALA [the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation
of Armenia] resorted to terror attacks for the same reason in the
1970s and 1980s. My grandfather was not involved in such actions -- I
should note that his father was killed by the security forces, just
like the Armenians killed during the deportations -- how could I
apologize for the alleged genocide? The Ä°stanbul government
admitted its faults and took action to punish the offenses. It even
took excessive measures to deal with human rights violations. We know
that a private who stole the watch of an Armenian was summarily
executed. What has been left behind?
But they say they do not have territorial aspirations.
Armenian authorities do not openly declare that they recognize
Turkey's borders. I ask them why they avoid such recognition. They
tell me if they do so, they will have made a compromise. What will you
give in return in the negotiations? You do not expect anything from
your neighbor in return for recognizing its borders. In return, your
neighbor also recognizes your borders. If you do not recognize your
neighbor's home, this is a justification and reason for war.
Will demands for material reparations and indemnities be voiced by the
Armenians?
Reparations for damages will be demanded even before territorial
claims. They are already studying this matter. The AXA insurance
company makes payments to the descendants of Armenians who died during
deportation, alleging that they were subjected to genocide. For
instance, the total amount of reparations paid by Germany to Israel
because of the Holocaust was about $100 billion. If you consider the
rate of inflation, this becomes a huge figure, approaching $1
trillion.
Is it obvious that Turkey will not pay this amount?
Not that obvious. Why shouldn't you pay this amount? If this is a
crime and you admit that you actually committed it, you have to. Do
you avoid payment of the reparations when the EU or the European Court
of Human Rights rules for such a payment?
How many Armenians did Turks rescue during the deportations?
A substantial part of the male deportees were militants. There were
many incidents where their relatives and families did have difficult
times. Men were primarily targeted during the attacks. Children and
the elderly had to suffer the consequences. Local people took action
to keep the orphans or the widows with them. This is an Islamic
tradition. This is an Ottoman tradition. Westerners cannot understand
this. In some cases, the guy just wanted a beautiful Armenian girl
whose husband died. Some marriages were built based on this motive.
Isn't this assimilation, even if it is done out of humanitarian
concerns?
If you ask this to Western people, this is genocide, because you are
trying to assimilate the Armenian population. However, Serbs raped
about 30,000 women during the civil war in Bosnia and Herzegovina but
did not marry any of these victims. And they did not accept the
children as their own. But there is something different here. These
people did not see the Armenians as dirty and inferior. They made
these women their wives. They had kids. They took these kids as their
own and embraced these women as their wives.
But they converted them to Islam¦
In that case, you accept your husband's religion as your religion. But
this Islamization is something like this: There were many Armenian
women who did not actually perform their religious duties, though they
looked pretty religious. There were some others who did not have much
information about Islam. They believed in God. The Armenian people
were not atheists. These marriages took place at early ages. And they
died as Muslims. There are many Armenian converts that fall into this
category.
Is there any research on this subject?
Yes, there is. There are memoirs by the adopted Armenians. There are a
few journalistic accounts on this matter. Scholarly research is about
to proliferate, however. I do not know the exact number. The husbands
did not admit their wives were Armenian. These people got old; they
are dying. This era is about to be over. And then there is this issue
of the adoptees; there are many orphans because their parents
died. Kazım Karabekir PaÅ?a devoted tireless efforts. In
addition, old couples took in these orphans. You can hear these
stories in every town. We know that a substantial number of them were
Armenians. For instance, in some places people have names like Ahmet
or Mehmet, but they are called "Unbeliever Ahmet" or "Unbeliever
Mehmet" because they are known as Armenians. There are people who
never observed daily prayers and who looked Muslim even though they
never practiced Islam in their personal lives. But, of course, there
are real Muslims, as well.
And there are Armenians who are disconnected with their original
identity and now consider themselves to be Turks and Muslims?
Yes, there are. There is no need to speculate about their lives,
however. There are thousands of such people. We have a whole different
group: This group was deliberately kept out of the deportation
schedule in the East and Southeast. About 350,000 Armenians returned
after the deportation. Among those who were concerned for their lives,
some announced they had converted to Islam. The village where they
lived was all Muslim, but they did not quite observe the religious
rituals. They did not have mosques. In some cases they built mosques
to prove their Islamic identity. But their worship was not like the
regular kind performed by Sunnis. Most of them asserted that they were
Alevi Muslim. Some of them totally changed their registration records
in an attempt to hide their Armenian identity. I mean, when they moved
to Ä°zmir or Ä°stanbul, they first took their record to
Rize and then Afyon. There are people who changed their registration
records seven or eight times. Normally when Turkish people change
their cities or residences, they keep their registration logs. And
amongst such people, some Armenians moved up to high-level official
positions.
Unfortunately, the republican regime did not have a good record on
this matter¦
Yes, you are right. Actually, there were Armenian deputies in
Parliament in the 1950s. Of course, there is also now a population
problem. If you nominate an Armenian candidate, where will he get
elected? But the state needs to do this: For instance, there should be
an Armenian general. That's what Western societies do. They pick a
black person, a woman or a member of a disadvantaged group. For
instance, there are many Turkish police officers in Germany. They also
appoint one of them as a supervisor. This will serve as a message to
the community. ¦ There should be an Armenian general in Turkey.
But you are talking about having a general in the army. Isn't there a
thorough procedure during admission into military schools in which the
past and identity of the candidates are investigated?
Yes, you are right. There is a background search, and I am fine with
that. You should pick somebody just because he is Armenian. You make
him a general because he is an Armenian; not because of his
talents. The same should be done with respect to women; there should
be a female general. We need such symbolic messages.
04 January 2009, Sunday
NURÄ°YE AKMAN Ä°STANBUL