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The Daily Yomiuri, Japan
Jan 17 2009
Pamuk: Islam not irreconcilable with West
The Yomiuri Shimbun
This is the fifth installment in a series of interviews with leading
intellectuals both at home and abroad about the present state of world
affairs and potential solutions to challenges that face the world in
2009. The following is excerpted from an interview with author Orhan
Pamuk, 56, winner of the 2006 Nobel Prize in Literature.
The Yomiuri Shimbun: Some say the 21st century will be a century of
confrontation, namely, a "clash of civilizations." Do you agree with
that?
Orhan Pamuk: In a Harvard classroom, Samuel Huntington's thought [of a
"clash of civilizations"] is an interesting idea. There is some truth
in it. But as it is represented by the international media, it has
become an idea that only paves the way to more fights and more
killings. The West kills more Muslims they are afraid of or
embarrassed by and say, "It's a clash of civilizations." It is not a
clash of civilizations. It is just killing people.
People with different origins, ethnic backgrounds, opinions, races,
religions, even with a history of fighting each other, should and can
live together. This is an ideal I believe in. You may say, "Oh, naive
Orhan, they can only kill each other." But I don't want to believe
that humanity is that bad.
I don't think Palestinians and Israelis can live happily in the same
street and kiss each other for at least another 50 years. But Kurds
and Turks have been living [alongside each other]. If the Turkish
government is wise, they can continue to live [side by side] for quite
a long time. So what I believe sometimes may contradict what happened
in history. Cynics do not have ideals. I have ideals. I believe that
this is possible and that's why I want Turkey to join the European
Union, which has higher standards of respect for different cultures
and multiculturalism.
You may say, "You are naive--look at your book 'Snow.'" I have a
character who lives through all these dilemmas. He naively believes,
like me, in all these things and falls into politically bad
situations. But I don't want a cynic's life.
The Ottoman Empire realized coexistence to some extent.
You can only run an empire with a sort of tolerance. Do not think that
they were multicultural, like EU or American tolerance. They were
totally different. It was inevitable. If you are running an empire,
you have to be tolerant to minorities. What I respect most in the
Ottoman Empire was that they did not impose Islam too much. They
imposed Islam, but compared with [the extent that] the West [imposes
its values], relatively less. An empire is always multiethnic.
There has been a long history of confrontation between Western and
Eastern cultures. Istanbul has been a powerful symbol of that
confrontation and coexistence.
Some people only point out the confrontations of cultures in their
lives, give their energy to focus on confrontations. I always point
out how harmoniously they come together. Some people go out and only
see head-scarved girls and mini-skirted girls and the conflict. Some
people go out and see how they do not notice each other and live in
peace in the streets of Istanbul. It depends on what you want to
see. But, yes, this is a country where all the contradictions are
abundantly available and visible. Is that a bad thing or a good thing?
Politicians, groups who want to get people's attention through
cultural difference, through secularism and conservatism, dramatize
these things.
Turkey is more politically troubled than socially troubled. If there
is a social problem, that is poverty--class distinction between the
rich and the poor. But politically, the representatives of the
secularists, who are heavily embedded in the state apparatus,
secularists and the army, are clashing with the popular Islamic
voters. And this clash is really harming the country. Both sides are
responsible for it. And most of the time lower classes and women
suffer from it. Islamic boys can go to universities, but women cannot
if they wear head scarves. Islamist politicians go into the parliament
and enjoy life, but women cannot if they wear head scarves. The
suffering of lower classes is not represented in the media. Turkey's
first problem is that there is so much class difference between a very
rich, leading bourgeoisie, making 50 percent of the national income,
and the immense poverty. This real conflict is expressed through
secularism, Islam and the army, and this kind of politics.
Turkey is a multicultural country, not politically but ethnically and
religiously. But I do not only see these problems as East clashes with
West. Only after September 11th was "clash of civilizations" set as a
sort of a standard model for the world.
While more then 99 percent of the population is Muslim, the state is
secular. Some say this secularism has reached its limit. Don't you
think this secularism is unnatural?
You are defending the argument of fundamental Islamists or
fundamentalist secularists. There are fundamentalist secularists who
think Islam is the problem, but I do not think so. There are also
Islamic fundamentalists. Your opinion is valid and very popular in
Turkey. But I disagree. Yes, Islam is a religion which does not stay
in the private sphere. It is not only about personal beliefs, but also
about how to run a country, about laws and governments. And the rules
are in the traditions of Islam and Koran. But this is the argument of
ultraradical secularists, which can only base its power on the force
of the army. Many people like me think that most of the Turkish people
believe at the same time both in a blend of secularism and a blend of
Islam.
I believe in secularism. I believe that public life should not be
ruled by the laws of the religion. But Islamic tradition is not like
that. Up to now, public life in Turkey has not been ruled by the rules
of traditions of Islam, but the rules of secularism. I am a
secularist, but a liberal secularist. There should be a harmony
between the people's wishes and secularization energy. Turkey's
secularists should be also liberal. We have secularists who base their
power only on the army. That damages Turkey's democracy. Once in 10
years we have a military coup. In the last 10 years we have not had
one, thank God. But every day, the army says don't do this, don't do
that. I don't like that. But it doesn't mean you are an Islamic
fundamentalist. I am also troubled by the raise of political Islam. So
I am squeezed by two sides, but I don't have to take a side.
Secularism is now combined with nationalism in Turkey. This
combination has depressed ethnic minorities including Kurds, Armenians
and Christians.
There is an obvious rise of nationalism in Turkey. There are many
reasons for that. One is the anxiety of those ruling classes who think
that if Turkey joined the EU, their interests will be damaged. Another
is that, unfortunately, some part of the Turkish Army is upset about
negotiations with the EU. Turkey's improvement in democracy is
developing in parallel with Turkey's relationship with the EU. Some
measures were taken by the previous and present governments, which I
am happy about. More freedom of speech, more respect for minorities,
more multiculturalism--unfortunately half of them are done just to
enter the EU.
I made it clear for the last seven years that I am for Turkey's
joining of the EU. Some of my political problems that I suffer were
due to that. But compared with the previous generations of Turkish
writers, it is nothing.
I see the EU not as a cultural model, though I am more westernized
than a regular Turk. I believe that Turkey should rely on its own
traditional culture. In fact I wrote novels like "My Name Is Red" to
highlight that culture. But I think politically and economically it
would be good for Turkey. Politically, it will be good because there
are some EU standards for democracy: free speech, respect for the
human rights, minorities, et cetera. Secondly, I also believe that
once you join the EU you are militarily under the umbrella of the
EU. You don't have to reserve so much money for military
spending. Also, once you are in the EU, Kurdish separatists will be
happier, too. Negotiations should go faster. But it is not going that
way, unfortunately.
The EU is sometimes called a Christian club.
This is what conservatives in the EU say. Europe should decide whether
EU is based on Christianity or based on "liberte, egalite,
fraternite." If Europe is based on Christianity, Turkey has no place
in that. But if Europe is based on the secular ideals, Turkey, which
has some land in Europe has a place.
It is not natural for Turkey to join the EU at all. But once it is
achieved--I am now pessimistic, it does not seem to be [going to be]
achieved soon--it will have a significant meaning. I know from the
questions by Iranian and Arab journalists that the liberals and
secular intellectuals of the Muslim countries are so much interested
in and have so much hope because they also want to have secularism and
liberal democracy in their countries. They also want to economically
flourish and enjoy freedom and liberty, respect for private life and
minorities in their countries. Turkey's entry into the EU will have a
strong impact on world politics, especially in the Middle East and
Islamic regions.
Pamuk is a Turkish author and Nobel laureate whose representative
works include "My Name Is Red" and "Snow."
(Jan. 17, 2009)
Jan 17 2009
Pamuk: Islam not irreconcilable with West
The Yomiuri Shimbun
This is the fifth installment in a series of interviews with leading
intellectuals both at home and abroad about the present state of world
affairs and potential solutions to challenges that face the world in
2009. The following is excerpted from an interview with author Orhan
Pamuk, 56, winner of the 2006 Nobel Prize in Literature.
The Yomiuri Shimbun: Some say the 21st century will be a century of
confrontation, namely, a "clash of civilizations." Do you agree with
that?
Orhan Pamuk: In a Harvard classroom, Samuel Huntington's thought [of a
"clash of civilizations"] is an interesting idea. There is some truth
in it. But as it is represented by the international media, it has
become an idea that only paves the way to more fights and more
killings. The West kills more Muslims they are afraid of or
embarrassed by and say, "It's a clash of civilizations." It is not a
clash of civilizations. It is just killing people.
People with different origins, ethnic backgrounds, opinions, races,
religions, even with a history of fighting each other, should and can
live together. This is an ideal I believe in. You may say, "Oh, naive
Orhan, they can only kill each other." But I don't want to believe
that humanity is that bad.
I don't think Palestinians and Israelis can live happily in the same
street and kiss each other for at least another 50 years. But Kurds
and Turks have been living [alongside each other]. If the Turkish
government is wise, they can continue to live [side by side] for quite
a long time. So what I believe sometimes may contradict what happened
in history. Cynics do not have ideals. I have ideals. I believe that
this is possible and that's why I want Turkey to join the European
Union, which has higher standards of respect for different cultures
and multiculturalism.
You may say, "You are naive--look at your book 'Snow.'" I have a
character who lives through all these dilemmas. He naively believes,
like me, in all these things and falls into politically bad
situations. But I don't want a cynic's life.
The Ottoman Empire realized coexistence to some extent.
You can only run an empire with a sort of tolerance. Do not think that
they were multicultural, like EU or American tolerance. They were
totally different. It was inevitable. If you are running an empire,
you have to be tolerant to minorities. What I respect most in the
Ottoman Empire was that they did not impose Islam too much. They
imposed Islam, but compared with [the extent that] the West [imposes
its values], relatively less. An empire is always multiethnic.
There has been a long history of confrontation between Western and
Eastern cultures. Istanbul has been a powerful symbol of that
confrontation and coexistence.
Some people only point out the confrontations of cultures in their
lives, give their energy to focus on confrontations. I always point
out how harmoniously they come together. Some people go out and only
see head-scarved girls and mini-skirted girls and the conflict. Some
people go out and see how they do not notice each other and live in
peace in the streets of Istanbul. It depends on what you want to
see. But, yes, this is a country where all the contradictions are
abundantly available and visible. Is that a bad thing or a good thing?
Politicians, groups who want to get people's attention through
cultural difference, through secularism and conservatism, dramatize
these things.
Turkey is more politically troubled than socially troubled. If there
is a social problem, that is poverty--class distinction between the
rich and the poor. But politically, the representatives of the
secularists, who are heavily embedded in the state apparatus,
secularists and the army, are clashing with the popular Islamic
voters. And this clash is really harming the country. Both sides are
responsible for it. And most of the time lower classes and women
suffer from it. Islamic boys can go to universities, but women cannot
if they wear head scarves. Islamist politicians go into the parliament
and enjoy life, but women cannot if they wear head scarves. The
suffering of lower classes is not represented in the media. Turkey's
first problem is that there is so much class difference between a very
rich, leading bourgeoisie, making 50 percent of the national income,
and the immense poverty. This real conflict is expressed through
secularism, Islam and the army, and this kind of politics.
Turkey is a multicultural country, not politically but ethnically and
religiously. But I do not only see these problems as East clashes with
West. Only after September 11th was "clash of civilizations" set as a
sort of a standard model for the world.
While more then 99 percent of the population is Muslim, the state is
secular. Some say this secularism has reached its limit. Don't you
think this secularism is unnatural?
You are defending the argument of fundamental Islamists or
fundamentalist secularists. There are fundamentalist secularists who
think Islam is the problem, but I do not think so. There are also
Islamic fundamentalists. Your opinion is valid and very popular in
Turkey. But I disagree. Yes, Islam is a religion which does not stay
in the private sphere. It is not only about personal beliefs, but also
about how to run a country, about laws and governments. And the rules
are in the traditions of Islam and Koran. But this is the argument of
ultraradical secularists, which can only base its power on the force
of the army. Many people like me think that most of the Turkish people
believe at the same time both in a blend of secularism and a blend of
Islam.
I believe in secularism. I believe that public life should not be
ruled by the laws of the religion. But Islamic tradition is not like
that. Up to now, public life in Turkey has not been ruled by the rules
of traditions of Islam, but the rules of secularism. I am a
secularist, but a liberal secularist. There should be a harmony
between the people's wishes and secularization energy. Turkey's
secularists should be also liberal. We have secularists who base their
power only on the army. That damages Turkey's democracy. Once in 10
years we have a military coup. In the last 10 years we have not had
one, thank God. But every day, the army says don't do this, don't do
that. I don't like that. But it doesn't mean you are an Islamic
fundamentalist. I am also troubled by the raise of political Islam. So
I am squeezed by two sides, but I don't have to take a side.
Secularism is now combined with nationalism in Turkey. This
combination has depressed ethnic minorities including Kurds, Armenians
and Christians.
There is an obvious rise of nationalism in Turkey. There are many
reasons for that. One is the anxiety of those ruling classes who think
that if Turkey joined the EU, their interests will be damaged. Another
is that, unfortunately, some part of the Turkish Army is upset about
negotiations with the EU. Turkey's improvement in democracy is
developing in parallel with Turkey's relationship with the EU. Some
measures were taken by the previous and present governments, which I
am happy about. More freedom of speech, more respect for minorities,
more multiculturalism--unfortunately half of them are done just to
enter the EU.
I made it clear for the last seven years that I am for Turkey's
joining of the EU. Some of my political problems that I suffer were
due to that. But compared with the previous generations of Turkish
writers, it is nothing.
I see the EU not as a cultural model, though I am more westernized
than a regular Turk. I believe that Turkey should rely on its own
traditional culture. In fact I wrote novels like "My Name Is Red" to
highlight that culture. But I think politically and economically it
would be good for Turkey. Politically, it will be good because there
are some EU standards for democracy: free speech, respect for the
human rights, minorities, et cetera. Secondly, I also believe that
once you join the EU you are militarily under the umbrella of the
EU. You don't have to reserve so much money for military
spending. Also, once you are in the EU, Kurdish separatists will be
happier, too. Negotiations should go faster. But it is not going that
way, unfortunately.
The EU is sometimes called a Christian club.
This is what conservatives in the EU say. Europe should decide whether
EU is based on Christianity or based on "liberte, egalite,
fraternite." If Europe is based on Christianity, Turkey has no place
in that. But if Europe is based on the secular ideals, Turkey, which
has some land in Europe has a place.
It is not natural for Turkey to join the EU at all. But once it is
achieved--I am now pessimistic, it does not seem to be [going to be]
achieved soon--it will have a significant meaning. I know from the
questions by Iranian and Arab journalists that the liberals and
secular intellectuals of the Muslim countries are so much interested
in and have so much hope because they also want to have secularism and
liberal democracy in their countries. They also want to economically
flourish and enjoy freedom and liberty, respect for private life and
minorities in their countries. Turkey's entry into the EU will have a
strong impact on world politics, especially in the Middle East and
Islamic regions.
Pamuk is a Turkish author and Nobel laureate whose representative
works include "My Name Is Red" and "Snow."
(Jan. 17, 2009)