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TIME HAS WORKED FOR AZERBAIJAN FOR 11 YEARS, SAYS FORMER ARMENIAN DEFENCE MINISTER VAGHARSHAK HARUTYUNYAN
168 Zham
May 12 2009
Armenia
Interview
[168 Zham] Last week Samvel Babayan, a former army commander of
Nagornyy Karabakh, said: "The NKR [Nagornyy Karabakh republic] is no
longer a military-political unit and factor in the region. It has
been detached from the negotiation process after I was neutralized
by a decision from Yerevan in 1999." He also said that the second
president of Armenia, Robert Kocharyan, had nothing to do with all
this. These issues were decided at the Security Council (SC) session
on 15 December 1999. You were Armenia's defence minister and a member
of the SC from 1999 to 2000. Were such questions discussed at that
session? Or was there a link between Nagornyy Karabakh's detachment
from the negotiation process and Samvel Babayan's dismissal?
[Vagharshak Harutyunyan] No, there was not. Babayan was dismissed
in December 1999. The NKR was detached from the process at the end
of 1998 when Robert Kocharyan was elected president. He thought that
Karabakh had exhausted its potential for the negotiation process. Thus
Kocharyan-Aliyev meetings started. The meetings without the NKR's
participation lasted nearly 18 years. As to the SC meeting at the end
of 1999, Nagornyy Karabakh's domestic policy issues were discussed at
that meeting. Moreover, the NKR had been isolated from the negotiation
process before that session and my appointment.
[168 Zham] If Nagornyy Karabakh had not been detached from the
negotiation process, would it have become a fully fledged negotiating
side? In general, there is a view that the NKR policies and official
appointments are decided in Armenia.
[Vagharshak Harutyunyan] When the Republic of Armenia started to
talk about the liberated territories, international organizations
regarded Armenia as an aggressor. The liberated districts are Nagornyy
Karabakh's territory and the NKR was supposed to talk about them. There
should be clarity as to who is responsible for the negotiations and
what they negotiate about. In this case, the Republic of Armenia is
also a conflicting side: it has territories and communications that
have been occupied, and there are refugees living in Armenia. These
are the issues directly related to Armenia, which is supposed to have
talks about them. Armenia should also be the guarantor of Artsakh's
[Nagornyy Karabakh's] security.
I think that [Nagornyy Karabakh president] Bako Sahakyan's statement
about the NKR's participation in the talks as a negotiating side is
right and timely.
[168 Zham] Yesterday a co-chair of the OSCE Minsk Group, Matthew
Bryza, said that the NKR and other occupied territories will be
returned to Azerbaijan step by step and that Azerbaijani refugees
will go back to those territories. The Armenian and NKR presidents,
Serzh Sargsyan and Bako Sahakyan, say that they also recognise the
territorial integrity of Azerbaijan, but that independent NKR has
never been part of independent Azerbaijan. What is hidden within
these contradicting statements?
[Vagharshak Harutyunyan] Armenian-Turkish relations, opening of the
[Turkish-Armenian] border, the genocide and NKR issues are interrelated
regional processes. Turkey will not treat these issues separately
from each other. And if there is no precondition in the talks or
the road map, and as [Armenian Foreign Minister Edvard] Nalbanyan
has said there is nothing there, then why do they not publicise
that document? If they do not publicise the document, that means
that there is something there on the genocide, the border opening,
the Kars treaty, the NKR issue and the return of the five liberated
districts. Simply, the implementation of this programme has been
divided into several phases, but its purpose is evident, that is to
strengthen this or that superpower's influence in the region. And if
we agree on the NKR delayed referendum and return five districts to
them [Azerbaijan], then we will go back to the status of 1988. We
will start from scratch and from the worse starting point. And the
superpowers are interested in deploying peacekeeping forces in the
region. Depending on what forces they are going to be, the influence of
the superpowers [in the region] could be predicted. Of course, Turkey
will also want to be represented in those forces. For the superpowers,
this issue is much more important than Nagornyy Karabakh's status.
[168 Zham] Matthew Bryza also mentioned that Nagornyy Karabakh's
status will be based on the principle of autonomy rather than
self-determination.
[Vagharshak Harutyunyan] These are completely different notions:
Self-determination is an international right, and autonomy is a
type of administration. Karabakh used to have autonomy as part of
Azerbaijan. The difference is too big.
[168 Zham] This version of referendum and the return of five of the
liberated districts were also discussed during Levon Ter-Petrosyan's
presidency.
[Vagharshak Harutyunyan] That was a suggestion that Ter-Petrosyan put
on the table for discussion in Nagornyy Karabakh's parliament. It
was presented to the public, as well and opinions were voiced. And
now there exists a document with unknown content.
[168 Zham] Yesterday Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan said that his
country had closed the border with Armenia because of the occupation of
Azerbaijani territories by Armenia. He said: "Return the territories
and we will open border." But President [Abdullah] Gul has a milder
position. Is this a conflict of positions or diplomacy?
[Vagharshak Harutyunyan] They have divided the directions: While
Erdogan is speaking for domestic consumption and Azerbaijan, and Gull
is speaking for Armenia, the USA and Europe. I would like to mention
that they have gained from this negotiation process, but Armenia has
not. The USA has delayed the recognition of genocide. They got their
short-term programme dividends. And how did all this start? Last year
on 8 February, Turkey made a statement that if the newly-elected
Armenian president proposed them to improve their relations, then
this would be accepted. It becomes clear that this was a preliminary
agreed plan and the USA was the God Father of it. All the steps,
including the football diplomacy, were the points of that plan. I
think that wrong calculations were made on responses from Armenia,
Karabaklh and our compatriots from Diaspora.
[168 Zham] Could you specify the mistakes the Armenian side has made
in the talks on the Nagornyy Karabakh issue and Armenian-Turkish
relations?
[Vagharshak Harutyunyan] The mistakes are not new. They have been
accumulated since a long time ago. I repeat that the first and
biggest mistake was the detachment of the NKR from the negotiation
process. Second, the authorities have not explained why the opening
of the border in this political situation is favourable for Armenia
economically, military and politically. It is apparent that the border
opening is unequivocally linked to the NKR issue and the interests
of the superpowers in this region. It is not clearly seen that the
authorities have calculated their steps. Of course, the border should
be opened but we should be ready for it. I feel that our country is not
ready for it. The existing level of corruption in our country will give
the Turks a nice opportunity to solve many economic issues by bribing
our civil servants. We should not have doubts that Turkey will support,
at the government level, its businessmen to invade our economy.
[168 Zham] Mr Harutyunyan, which side has time worked for after the
signing of the ceasefire in May 1994?
[Vagharshak Harutyunyan] I think that our wrong policies started from
the moment when the NKR was pushed out of the negotiation process in
1998, and the Aliyev-Kocharyan negotiations started. And time started
to work for Azerbaijan.
168 Zham
May 12 2009
Armenia
Interview
[168 Zham] Last week Samvel Babayan, a former army commander of
Nagornyy Karabakh, said: "The NKR [Nagornyy Karabakh republic] is no
longer a military-political unit and factor in the region. It has
been detached from the negotiation process after I was neutralized
by a decision from Yerevan in 1999." He also said that the second
president of Armenia, Robert Kocharyan, had nothing to do with all
this. These issues were decided at the Security Council (SC) session
on 15 December 1999. You were Armenia's defence minister and a member
of the SC from 1999 to 2000. Were such questions discussed at that
session? Or was there a link between Nagornyy Karabakh's detachment
from the negotiation process and Samvel Babayan's dismissal?
[Vagharshak Harutyunyan] No, there was not. Babayan was dismissed
in December 1999. The NKR was detached from the process at the end
of 1998 when Robert Kocharyan was elected president. He thought that
Karabakh had exhausted its potential for the negotiation process. Thus
Kocharyan-Aliyev meetings started. The meetings without the NKR's
participation lasted nearly 18 years. As to the SC meeting at the end
of 1999, Nagornyy Karabakh's domestic policy issues were discussed at
that meeting. Moreover, the NKR had been isolated from the negotiation
process before that session and my appointment.
[168 Zham] If Nagornyy Karabakh had not been detached from the
negotiation process, would it have become a fully fledged negotiating
side? In general, there is a view that the NKR policies and official
appointments are decided in Armenia.
[Vagharshak Harutyunyan] When the Republic of Armenia started to
talk about the liberated territories, international organizations
regarded Armenia as an aggressor. The liberated districts are Nagornyy
Karabakh's territory and the NKR was supposed to talk about them. There
should be clarity as to who is responsible for the negotiations and
what they negotiate about. In this case, the Republic of Armenia is
also a conflicting side: it has territories and communications that
have been occupied, and there are refugees living in Armenia. These
are the issues directly related to Armenia, which is supposed to have
talks about them. Armenia should also be the guarantor of Artsakh's
[Nagornyy Karabakh's] security.
I think that [Nagornyy Karabakh president] Bako Sahakyan's statement
about the NKR's participation in the talks as a negotiating side is
right and timely.
[168 Zham] Yesterday a co-chair of the OSCE Minsk Group, Matthew
Bryza, said that the NKR and other occupied territories will be
returned to Azerbaijan step by step and that Azerbaijani refugees
will go back to those territories. The Armenian and NKR presidents,
Serzh Sargsyan and Bako Sahakyan, say that they also recognise the
territorial integrity of Azerbaijan, but that independent NKR has
never been part of independent Azerbaijan. What is hidden within
these contradicting statements?
[Vagharshak Harutyunyan] Armenian-Turkish relations, opening of the
[Turkish-Armenian] border, the genocide and NKR issues are interrelated
regional processes. Turkey will not treat these issues separately
from each other. And if there is no precondition in the talks or
the road map, and as [Armenian Foreign Minister Edvard] Nalbanyan
has said there is nothing there, then why do they not publicise
that document? If they do not publicise the document, that means
that there is something there on the genocide, the border opening,
the Kars treaty, the NKR issue and the return of the five liberated
districts. Simply, the implementation of this programme has been
divided into several phases, but its purpose is evident, that is to
strengthen this or that superpower's influence in the region. And if
we agree on the NKR delayed referendum and return five districts to
them [Azerbaijan], then we will go back to the status of 1988. We
will start from scratch and from the worse starting point. And the
superpowers are interested in deploying peacekeeping forces in the
region. Depending on what forces they are going to be, the influence of
the superpowers [in the region] could be predicted. Of course, Turkey
will also want to be represented in those forces. For the superpowers,
this issue is much more important than Nagornyy Karabakh's status.
[168 Zham] Matthew Bryza also mentioned that Nagornyy Karabakh's
status will be based on the principle of autonomy rather than
self-determination.
[Vagharshak Harutyunyan] These are completely different notions:
Self-determination is an international right, and autonomy is a
type of administration. Karabakh used to have autonomy as part of
Azerbaijan. The difference is too big.
[168 Zham] This version of referendum and the return of five of the
liberated districts were also discussed during Levon Ter-Petrosyan's
presidency.
[Vagharshak Harutyunyan] That was a suggestion that Ter-Petrosyan put
on the table for discussion in Nagornyy Karabakh's parliament. It
was presented to the public, as well and opinions were voiced. And
now there exists a document with unknown content.
[168 Zham] Yesterday Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan said that his
country had closed the border with Armenia because of the occupation of
Azerbaijani territories by Armenia. He said: "Return the territories
and we will open border." But President [Abdullah] Gul has a milder
position. Is this a conflict of positions or diplomacy?
[Vagharshak Harutyunyan] They have divided the directions: While
Erdogan is speaking for domestic consumption and Azerbaijan, and Gull
is speaking for Armenia, the USA and Europe. I would like to mention
that they have gained from this negotiation process, but Armenia has
not. The USA has delayed the recognition of genocide. They got their
short-term programme dividends. And how did all this start? Last year
on 8 February, Turkey made a statement that if the newly-elected
Armenian president proposed them to improve their relations, then
this would be accepted. It becomes clear that this was a preliminary
agreed plan and the USA was the God Father of it. All the steps,
including the football diplomacy, were the points of that plan. I
think that wrong calculations were made on responses from Armenia,
Karabaklh and our compatriots from Diaspora.
[168 Zham] Could you specify the mistakes the Armenian side has made
in the talks on the Nagornyy Karabakh issue and Armenian-Turkish
relations?
[Vagharshak Harutyunyan] The mistakes are not new. They have been
accumulated since a long time ago. I repeat that the first and
biggest mistake was the detachment of the NKR from the negotiation
process. Second, the authorities have not explained why the opening
of the border in this political situation is favourable for Armenia
economically, military and politically. It is apparent that the border
opening is unequivocally linked to the NKR issue and the interests
of the superpowers in this region. It is not clearly seen that the
authorities have calculated their steps. Of course, the border should
be opened but we should be ready for it. I feel that our country is not
ready for it. The existing level of corruption in our country will give
the Turks a nice opportunity to solve many economic issues by bribing
our civil servants. We should not have doubts that Turkey will support,
at the government level, its businessmen to invade our economy.
[168 Zham] Mr Harutyunyan, which side has time worked for after the
signing of the ceasefire in May 1994?
[Vagharshak Harutyunyan] I think that our wrong policies started from
the moment when the NKR was pushed out of the negotiation process in
1998, and the Aliyev-Kocharyan negotiations started. And time started
to work for Azerbaijan.