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BORDER DEBATE: "NOTHING IS SETTLED SINCE EVERYTHING HASN'T BEEN SETTLED"
Kristine Aghalaryan
http://hetq.am/en/politics/armenian-ge orgyan-border/
2009/09/14 | 18:40
Work on mapping the Armenian-Georgian border is coming to a
close. However disputed territories still exist and it is up to the
Inter-State Demarcation Commission to reach a mutually agreeable
resolution.
For the past two weeks, the Armenian media has been covering the of
the Armenian-Georgian border demarcation issue and events centered
in the Armenian town of Bavra, located in the far north of Shirak
Marz. At the border town, Georgian patrols have not permitted Armenian
villagers from accessing certain agricultural lands, arguing that
these in fact are located within Georgia proper.
Bavra community leader Koryun Soumboulyan emphatically denies that
this is the case and back up his assertion by presenting property deeds
issued the Armenian villagers by the State Property Cadastre. Georgian
border guards point to a 1942 demarcation document showing that the
lands in question belong to Georgia.
Ashot Melkonyan, Director of the RoA Academy of Sciences' Institute of
History states in amazement that, "I really don't see the logic. What
need was there for such a demarcation during the Great Patriotic
War? Do you really think that during the battle for Stalingrad they
were mapping out the borders between Soviet Georgia and neighboring
Soviet Armenia? At the time we didn't even know if Stalingrad would
fall or not."
Professor Melkonyan points to the document signed on November 6, 1921
between the two Soviet republics as the last demarcation agreement. It
was signed by Armenian Revolutionary Committee (Revkom) President
Aleksandr Myasnikyan and his Georgian counterpart, Budu Mdivani. The
treaty includes an addendum mapping out the border in minute detail,
showing each hill, valley, village and stream. Professor Melkonyan
lays it all out in his book "Javakhk".
" While there are documents registering disputes among state economic
enterprises along the border in the late 1920's and early 1930's,
regarding grazing and water usage rights, this doesn't mean that
the border itself was moved. People always get the two sets of
circumstances mixed up. These agreements were signed by neighboring
districts. For example, there were such agreements brokered between
Gyumri and the Georgian district of Bogdanovka.
The Inter-State Commission Has Demarcated 70% of Border
It has been three years now that an inter-state committee comprised of
cartographers of the two nations has been working on demarcating the
border. (The Interstate Commission on Diplomacy and Demarcation of
the Armenian-Georgian border was founded in 1995 but did little of
practical value until a few years ago)The Armenian component is made
up of 13 specialists from various departments - the RoA Academy of
Sciences, the National Security Service's Border Patrol, Ministry
of Justice, State Revenue Commission, Ministry of Territorial
Administration, and the State Non-Commercial Organizations
"Hoghshinmonitorink", "Geodesic and Cartography Center", etc.
When we enquired what steps were planned by the RoA Ministry of Foreign
Affairs in light of recent developments on the Armenian-Georgian
border, we received the following answer:
"Such issues crop up in those border areas as yet not included in the
parameters of the border commission. The activity of the commission
is being directed along these lines to see that such issues do not
appear in the future."
The RoA Foreign Ministry did not specify what parts of the border
between Armenia and Georgia were still in question. Rather, it
noted that 70% of the 206 kilometer border had been officially
demarcated. However, the commission works according to the following
principle - nothing has been agreed to since as yet everything hasn't
been agreed to.
Hovsep Petrosyan: " The Armenian-Georgian border isn't black and white"
Hovsep Petrosyan, Director of the Geodesic and Cartography Center,
states, " The maps of Bavra's agricultural lands show that they have
always belonged to the RoA and Bavra residents have always used these
lands. Today, even if the Georgians point to the 1942 demarcation
document to buttress their claims, this doesn't mean that the lands
belong to them. Do you think that the people didn't have anything
better to do than map out a border or make such modifications? There
are sites along the border that must be conceded to the other since
the local residents are not at fault. People who have been using
certain areas for so many years must be allowed to continue so."
Mr. Petrosyan is a member of the Inter-State Commission in the capacity
of a cartographer. He confesses that the Armenian-Georgian border is
complex since residents on both sides have been using it as they see
fit when it benefits them.
"We have been in negotiations for two years already. About 60% has
been mapped out satisfactorily. The border has been drawn to meet
all technical and normative standards and has even taken into account
issues of water rights."
According to the expert, issues arise when demarcating the border on
flat lands; the site of rural communities and adjoining agricultural
lands. For the Armenians, Bavra is such a contested site, while there
are three Armenian villages contested by the Georgians.
Map Making: A Professional Glossary
Not having a 1/1000 scale map for the Armenian-Georgian border,
the Armenians conducted a stereocompilation photographic work in
2003. They sent letters and received the go-ahead to place planimetric
points on Georgian lands. "To create a map from photos we must first
receive orthophotographic diagrams to be overlaid on the planimetric
maps to come up with a new map to scale," explains Mr. Petrosyan
Mr. Petrosyan certifies that the Armenian side carried out such
work and that it was transferred to the Georgians and that they also
conducted research and that they drew the border line on a map with
a 10,000 scale and not a 50,000.
The Georgians accepted the proposal of the Armenian cartographers
but it wasn't acted on. They also conducted photographic work in 2008
but that their maps contain certain planimetric deviations.
Hovsep Petrosyan says that working with the Georgians is easy in the
sense that the mapping work is carried out by private institutions
and the principle of map secrecy doesn't exist. The Georgian Foreign
Ministry merely is involved in administrative activities. However,
relief maps in Armenia with scales of 10,000, 25,000 and 50,000 are
kept secret and not distributed.
Mr. Petrosyan says, " We took their figures and incorporated them
onto our maps. After correcting for inaccuracies, we will conduct
field measurements for sites where disagreements exist. We will
check what actually exists on the ground and afterwards, according
to the conclusions of the commission, we will present our findings
and proposals to the leaders of the two nations. The main drawback
is that each side, rather than thinking about its obligations, is
more concerned with voicing their rights."
"Drawing the line is a historic moment"
The maps drawn up by the cartographers of both countries drastically
differ in the rural communities of Aghkyurpi, Chanakhchi and Ziliza,
certain vineyards of Debed and various forested border regions. These
contested sites comprise about 120 hectares.
Professor Ashot Melkonyan sadly notes that modifications have
also arisen in the forested belt - the plateau stretches from the
Noyemberyan area to Alaverdi. There it ends. The hills give way to
the grasslands at which point Northern Lori begins.
"There used to be a forested zone right there as a demarcation. But
it was continually cut down, especially by the Georgians, because
residents had no other means of livelihood. Thus, it turns out that
the border started to gradually encroach into Armenia," says Professor
Melkonyan.
"They like to mention the forest but cartography doesn't appreciate
such references. There are coordinates, a line, an azimuth, distances
and other standards of delineation. The forest was once considered
the demarcation of the border but over the years the forest has been
felled on their side. They have encroached into our territory but
this doesn't mean that the lands belong to them. Modern technologies
stipulate the concepts of coordinates, angles, lines. Once fixed
they are drawn and remain despite changes to the exterior landscape,"
says Mr. Petrosyan, Director of the Geodesic and Cartography Center.
Elmira Avetisyan, who heads the Photogrammetry Topographic Registry
Division, is now busy with the synthesis of the maps by the Armenian
and Georgian teams with satellite imagery.
"For the most part we don't have a border problem in Bavra. The
border is drawn quite clearly through Bavra. For the life of me,
I don't know why a problem arose in the first place," says Elmira
Avetisyan, showing the overlay of the two maps.
As a cartography expert who works on paper, Elmira Avetisyan says
that approximate measurements have no place in the field and that
there are concise X and Y points. Comparing the Armenian and Georgian
maps and seeing the differences, the expert is interested to know
how they came up with their X and Y since she came up with the border
line on the basis on satellite imagery. That imagery lends itself to
photogrammetric refinement. New computer technologies allow for the
more correct calculating of points; according to elevation, relief,
mountain peaks, etc.
"It is a very labor intensive process. You just can't say, 'hey,
it's just a line, draw it'. The drawing of that line is a historic
moment. We must have a unified map. Now, I am refining what we
have because there were inaccuracies in elevations from on-site
measurements. By mixing two points I come up with a map again,"
says Elmira Avetisyan.
Georgian and Armenian Foreign Ministers Discuss Demarcation Issue
Grigol Vashadze, the Georgian Foreign Minister was in Armenia
on a working visit from September 4-6. The two foreign ministers
discussed issues related to the Armenian-Georgian border demarcation
and discussed the agenda of the inter-state commission's upcoming
session with RoA President Serzh Sargsyan.
The last meeting of the demarcation commission's geodesists took
place on June 9-10 of this year. During the meeting, by combining
maps made with new technologies, the Armenian experts took certain
materials in order to compare and come up with a unified map. Now,
the process is in the final stage and the cartography work will be
completed by the end of September or early October.
Director Hovsep Petrosyan of the Geodesic and Cartography Center notes
that they are doing their job but that it remains for the foreign
ministries of the two nations to ratify their results. "It is also a
political issue and I am only responsible for the mapping part of it."
After the creation of a unified map, the two sides will formally draw
the boundary line through it.
After the inter-state commission completes its work, the end product
will be presented to the RoA National Assembly. The final border will
be certified by the presidents of the two nations.
The next meeting of the demarcation commission takes place at the
end of September.
Kristine Aghalaryan
http://hetq.am/en/politics/armenian-ge orgyan-border/
2009/09/14 | 18:40
Work on mapping the Armenian-Georgian border is coming to a
close. However disputed territories still exist and it is up to the
Inter-State Demarcation Commission to reach a mutually agreeable
resolution.
For the past two weeks, the Armenian media has been covering the of
the Armenian-Georgian border demarcation issue and events centered
in the Armenian town of Bavra, located in the far north of Shirak
Marz. At the border town, Georgian patrols have not permitted Armenian
villagers from accessing certain agricultural lands, arguing that
these in fact are located within Georgia proper.
Bavra community leader Koryun Soumboulyan emphatically denies that
this is the case and back up his assertion by presenting property deeds
issued the Armenian villagers by the State Property Cadastre. Georgian
border guards point to a 1942 demarcation document showing that the
lands in question belong to Georgia.
Ashot Melkonyan, Director of the RoA Academy of Sciences' Institute of
History states in amazement that, "I really don't see the logic. What
need was there for such a demarcation during the Great Patriotic
War? Do you really think that during the battle for Stalingrad they
were mapping out the borders between Soviet Georgia and neighboring
Soviet Armenia? At the time we didn't even know if Stalingrad would
fall or not."
Professor Melkonyan points to the document signed on November 6, 1921
between the two Soviet republics as the last demarcation agreement. It
was signed by Armenian Revolutionary Committee (Revkom) President
Aleksandr Myasnikyan and his Georgian counterpart, Budu Mdivani. The
treaty includes an addendum mapping out the border in minute detail,
showing each hill, valley, village and stream. Professor Melkonyan
lays it all out in his book "Javakhk".
" While there are documents registering disputes among state economic
enterprises along the border in the late 1920's and early 1930's,
regarding grazing and water usage rights, this doesn't mean that
the border itself was moved. People always get the two sets of
circumstances mixed up. These agreements were signed by neighboring
districts. For example, there were such agreements brokered between
Gyumri and the Georgian district of Bogdanovka.
The Inter-State Commission Has Demarcated 70% of Border
It has been three years now that an inter-state committee comprised of
cartographers of the two nations has been working on demarcating the
border. (The Interstate Commission on Diplomacy and Demarcation of
the Armenian-Georgian border was founded in 1995 but did little of
practical value until a few years ago)The Armenian component is made
up of 13 specialists from various departments - the RoA Academy of
Sciences, the National Security Service's Border Patrol, Ministry
of Justice, State Revenue Commission, Ministry of Territorial
Administration, and the State Non-Commercial Organizations
"Hoghshinmonitorink", "Geodesic and Cartography Center", etc.
When we enquired what steps were planned by the RoA Ministry of Foreign
Affairs in light of recent developments on the Armenian-Georgian
border, we received the following answer:
"Such issues crop up in those border areas as yet not included in the
parameters of the border commission. The activity of the commission
is being directed along these lines to see that such issues do not
appear in the future."
The RoA Foreign Ministry did not specify what parts of the border
between Armenia and Georgia were still in question. Rather, it
noted that 70% of the 206 kilometer border had been officially
demarcated. However, the commission works according to the following
principle - nothing has been agreed to since as yet everything hasn't
been agreed to.
Hovsep Petrosyan: " The Armenian-Georgian border isn't black and white"
Hovsep Petrosyan, Director of the Geodesic and Cartography Center,
states, " The maps of Bavra's agricultural lands show that they have
always belonged to the RoA and Bavra residents have always used these
lands. Today, even if the Georgians point to the 1942 demarcation
document to buttress their claims, this doesn't mean that the lands
belong to them. Do you think that the people didn't have anything
better to do than map out a border or make such modifications? There
are sites along the border that must be conceded to the other since
the local residents are not at fault. People who have been using
certain areas for so many years must be allowed to continue so."
Mr. Petrosyan is a member of the Inter-State Commission in the capacity
of a cartographer. He confesses that the Armenian-Georgian border is
complex since residents on both sides have been using it as they see
fit when it benefits them.
"We have been in negotiations for two years already. About 60% has
been mapped out satisfactorily. The border has been drawn to meet
all technical and normative standards and has even taken into account
issues of water rights."
According to the expert, issues arise when demarcating the border on
flat lands; the site of rural communities and adjoining agricultural
lands. For the Armenians, Bavra is such a contested site, while there
are three Armenian villages contested by the Georgians.
Map Making: A Professional Glossary
Not having a 1/1000 scale map for the Armenian-Georgian border,
the Armenians conducted a stereocompilation photographic work in
2003. They sent letters and received the go-ahead to place planimetric
points on Georgian lands. "To create a map from photos we must first
receive orthophotographic diagrams to be overlaid on the planimetric
maps to come up with a new map to scale," explains Mr. Petrosyan
Mr. Petrosyan certifies that the Armenian side carried out such
work and that it was transferred to the Georgians and that they also
conducted research and that they drew the border line on a map with
a 10,000 scale and not a 50,000.
The Georgians accepted the proposal of the Armenian cartographers
but it wasn't acted on. They also conducted photographic work in 2008
but that their maps contain certain planimetric deviations.
Hovsep Petrosyan says that working with the Georgians is easy in the
sense that the mapping work is carried out by private institutions
and the principle of map secrecy doesn't exist. The Georgian Foreign
Ministry merely is involved in administrative activities. However,
relief maps in Armenia with scales of 10,000, 25,000 and 50,000 are
kept secret and not distributed.
Mr. Petrosyan says, " We took their figures and incorporated them
onto our maps. After correcting for inaccuracies, we will conduct
field measurements for sites where disagreements exist. We will
check what actually exists on the ground and afterwards, according
to the conclusions of the commission, we will present our findings
and proposals to the leaders of the two nations. The main drawback
is that each side, rather than thinking about its obligations, is
more concerned with voicing their rights."
"Drawing the line is a historic moment"
The maps drawn up by the cartographers of both countries drastically
differ in the rural communities of Aghkyurpi, Chanakhchi and Ziliza,
certain vineyards of Debed and various forested border regions. These
contested sites comprise about 120 hectares.
Professor Ashot Melkonyan sadly notes that modifications have
also arisen in the forested belt - the plateau stretches from the
Noyemberyan area to Alaverdi. There it ends. The hills give way to
the grasslands at which point Northern Lori begins.
"There used to be a forested zone right there as a demarcation. But
it was continually cut down, especially by the Georgians, because
residents had no other means of livelihood. Thus, it turns out that
the border started to gradually encroach into Armenia," says Professor
Melkonyan.
"They like to mention the forest but cartography doesn't appreciate
such references. There are coordinates, a line, an azimuth, distances
and other standards of delineation. The forest was once considered
the demarcation of the border but over the years the forest has been
felled on their side. They have encroached into our territory but
this doesn't mean that the lands belong to them. Modern technologies
stipulate the concepts of coordinates, angles, lines. Once fixed
they are drawn and remain despite changes to the exterior landscape,"
says Mr. Petrosyan, Director of the Geodesic and Cartography Center.
Elmira Avetisyan, who heads the Photogrammetry Topographic Registry
Division, is now busy with the synthesis of the maps by the Armenian
and Georgian teams with satellite imagery.
"For the most part we don't have a border problem in Bavra. The
border is drawn quite clearly through Bavra. For the life of me,
I don't know why a problem arose in the first place," says Elmira
Avetisyan, showing the overlay of the two maps.
As a cartography expert who works on paper, Elmira Avetisyan says
that approximate measurements have no place in the field and that
there are concise X and Y points. Comparing the Armenian and Georgian
maps and seeing the differences, the expert is interested to know
how they came up with their X and Y since she came up with the border
line on the basis on satellite imagery. That imagery lends itself to
photogrammetric refinement. New computer technologies allow for the
more correct calculating of points; according to elevation, relief,
mountain peaks, etc.
"It is a very labor intensive process. You just can't say, 'hey,
it's just a line, draw it'. The drawing of that line is a historic
moment. We must have a unified map. Now, I am refining what we
have because there were inaccuracies in elevations from on-site
measurements. By mixing two points I come up with a map again,"
says Elmira Avetisyan.
Georgian and Armenian Foreign Ministers Discuss Demarcation Issue
Grigol Vashadze, the Georgian Foreign Minister was in Armenia
on a working visit from September 4-6. The two foreign ministers
discussed issues related to the Armenian-Georgian border demarcation
and discussed the agenda of the inter-state commission's upcoming
session with RoA President Serzh Sargsyan.
The last meeting of the demarcation commission's geodesists took
place on June 9-10 of this year. During the meeting, by combining
maps made with new technologies, the Armenian experts took certain
materials in order to compare and come up with a unified map. Now,
the process is in the final stage and the cartography work will be
completed by the end of September or early October.
Director Hovsep Petrosyan of the Geodesic and Cartography Center notes
that they are doing their job but that it remains for the foreign
ministries of the two nations to ratify their results. "It is also a
political issue and I am only responsible for the mapping part of it."
After the creation of a unified map, the two sides will formally draw
the boundary line through it.
After the inter-state commission completes its work, the end product
will be presented to the RoA National Assembly. The final border will
be certified by the presidents of the two nations.
The next meeting of the demarcation commission takes place at the
end of September.