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FRENCH-ARMENIANS SPEAK OUT ON ARMENIAN-TURKISH RELATIONS
http://hetq.am/en/politics/france-5/
20 09/09/28 | 18:12
Feature Stories politics
Seta Grigoryan, Hetq's correspondent in Paris spoke with a
cross-section of French-Armenians regarding recent developments in
Armenian-Turkish relations. Below are excerpts of the interviews.
Sahag Sukiasian (Historian; Director of "Maison Armenienne" at the
Cite Internationale Universitaire de Paris) - "There is an historical
record that Turkey must face up to"
Everyone has certain reservations - fears and concerns. This is
natural since Armenia and Turkey aren't random nations and your
average neighbors. There exists a deep chasm between the two and
the shadow of the genocide still reigns over their relations till
today. Everyone wishes normal relations with their neighbors and so
do we all; whether we live in Armenia or not.
First, let me say that I am glad that the opinions of the entire
Armenian people are being listened to since the issue at hand has
pan-national proportions. It doesn't merely impact on the Republic
of Armenia and its citizens. I read today that President Sargsyan
organized a roundtable discussion with various political forces. It
was a positive initiative and he noted that he would soon be touring
various disapora communities and listening to what people had to
say. You know, we are the direct inheritors of that history and thus
the issue is quite important to us. I see two main issues - opening
of the border and establishing relations.
Regarding the establishment of relations, I believe that the two
sides have much to do. But, I believe Turkey has the most work to
do. As an inheritor of that history I would argue that Turkey must
take the first step. Now I don't know how to proceed; should we set
preconditions or not? It would seem to me however that Turkey must
first recognize the Genocide. It is hard to enter into dialogue with a
nation that which is the successor to a state that committed Genocide
and now denies the fact. They could have acknowledged the truth.
I want to approach the issue as a historian and say that there is an
interesting phenomenon at work here. We can really say that during
the past year there has been actual progress made in normalizing
relations. But if Turkey today is thinking about dialogue we must
seriously ponder the matter and ask ourselves why. I see one motivating
reason. Today, Turkey's ruling elite has understood that the Kemalist
policy needs to be changed; that it cannot continue. This is especially
the case if they want to make it into the European Union. This they
came face to face with difficulties they thought that they might
reflect on their past.
They also know that by creating new links throughout the region their
international standing will also improve.
I think that the opening of the border is not at all a priority
right now. What is important is the process of familiarity and then
reconciliation. But I would also like to say that as a product of
that history I take a very strict and disciplined approach to the
matter. If the Turkish authorities have it in the heads that they can
call into question the reality of the Genocide and come up with new
definitions and conclusions, I am totally against the normalization
process; as an Armenian and a historian.
Antranig Khojasarian - "Beware of Turkey's ulterior motives"
Silence can be a sign of acceptance and till today the border issue
hasn't been recognized by Armenia. The opening of the border doesn't
correspond to the interests of Armenia. The Turkish mentality is based
on territory. Today it has powerful institutions and over 3 million
Turkified-Armenians. This is a huge advantage over Armenia. We, in the
diaspora, have one demand - Genocide recognition and not the opening
of the border. We will never give up the demand to review the past.
Turkey's aim is to prevent the recognition of the Genocide and the
consequences that would result. Turkey's aim isn't to establish normal
relations but to snare us in a diplomatic trap and thus extract as
many preconditions from us as possible.
The published protocols clearly show that the Armenian people will
pay a very high price indeed for the opening of the border and
establishment of diplomatic relations. There are episodes, times and
folds in the pages of our history that are being buried under mounds
of mud. If the border is opened, not only will current generations
pay that heavy price, but successive generations to follow.
If it transpires that the documents are ratified and signed and all
the traitorous demands are put in force, we will witness with our
own eyes the withering away of our country, the death of the Armenian
Cause and the first manifestations of widespread assimilation.
Dikran Yegavian (Journalist) - "The Diaspora and Armenia must go
their separate ways"
Let me start by saying that the first move was made last April when the
diaspora and Armenia squared off in opposition. We should understand
that Armenia has its priorities and agenda. We want the recognition
of the Genocide but Armenia doesn't have the resources or strength to
put the issue on the table. Thus, we are concerned that Armenia will
enter negotiations from a position of weakness. Then too, Turkey has
a rich diplomatic tradition. Armenia cannot comprehend all the facets
of Turkish diplomacy.
I am concerned that Armenia will lose its supremacy since it has no
laws to protect its property. This means that Turkish businessmen can
slowly buy up land in Armenia and take over. Turkish strategy is still
based on realizing its pan-Turkist ambitions with Azerbaijan. This
time they won't be brandishing swords.
I feel quite insulted by Armenia since once again, rather than asking
our opinion, they sold out the country and the memory of the Genocide
martyrs. Rather than help us, they hurt us. The Turks will bide their
time and prove that their conscience is clean. Regarding scientific
research, Armenia has won out but Turkey, knowing that Armenia is
in a weak position, will cleverly seek to bury the matter by opening
the border. This is a blow against the diaspora.
As a young diaspora-Armenian journalist, the time has come for the
diaspora to make a clean break with Armenia. While understanding that
our interests are different, I realize that the diaspora, sadly,
remains without a unifying structure. This is a great opportunity,
on a philosophical and spiritual level, for the diaspora to
develop. Public opinion in the diaspora says we are different from
Armenia. The diaspora is the consequence of a Disaster. We must split
from Armenia. I don't say we should hate Armenia. On the contrary; it
will be a split of the mind. Our politics must be different. Today,
what unites the diaspora isn't the Armenian language or religion;
it is the struggle being waged for Genocide recognition
Garbis Jaloian - "Armenia must chart its own foreign policy"
It is only natural that Armenia, as a country, a people, must decide
its own foreign policy. Armenia can't continue not having relations
with its neighbors. Armenia has mutual interests as well as Turkey. The
recognition of the Genocide must wait till later.
It is important that Turkey recognized the Genocide. Turkey has taken
some positive steps of late to get closer to Armenia. There is now
the opportunity for the two countries to strive for a resolution
of problems. The diaspora can express its own views but Armenia,
as an independent state, must decide its foreign policy based on its
own interests.
The Genocide is our burden but it must not stand in the way of
Armenia's development. We will arrive at a resolution through
diplomatic means. We must prepare ourselves psychologically. When
normal relations are created we can enter into a dialogue. I agree
that any talk of territorial concessions on the part of Turkey is an
impossibility. There are 7-8 million people living on those lands. The
only advantages to negotiations would first be the solving of the
Karabakh problem and then for Armenia to have access to the Black Sea.
Tovmas Stepanian - "President Sargsyan has blocked the road of
Genocide recognition"
President Sargsyan is today focused on Armenia's economic problems,
on personal interests. He isn't taking the regional picture into
account. Turkey is pressing ahead with a settlement to Karabakh. Turkey
is an ally of Azerbaijan and would like to see all of Artsakh revert
back to the Azeris. We fully realize that Turkey is out to protect
its interests in the region.
By agreeing to the sub-committee, President Sargsyan has blocked
the road of Genocide recognition. This also prevented U.S. President
Obama from uttering the word "genocide".
In this context I am very pessimistic for Armenia. Armenia will
continue to exist but it will have let slip by an opportunity when
it could have shined. The diaspora will also split. One segment will
support President Sargsyan and other will not. Turkey enjoys great
influence and is an ally of the United States and manipulates the
situation to its advantage.
Jirair Kivreshji - "The Armenian community in Turkey can serve as
a bridge"
I have no expectations. Both sides do not want to make concessions. As
an Armenian from Turkey I want to see normal relations. The
border must be opened but Karabakh must not be included as a
precondition. Generally, I am against the protocols; there is much
hidden there we don't know about.
There are two kinds of Turks. There are my friends who also want to
see normal relations. Then there is a very large segment that always
links the issue to Azerbaijan's interests. I always say that these
two issues must be separated. The Armenians of Turkey act like sort
of a bridge between the two societies. We Armenians of Bolis have our
own set of problems - with school education, churches, etc. Perhaps,
with normalized relations, teachers from Armenia could come here and
help out and for our culture to develop.
The protocols should include a reference to the Genocide. If the
Turks don't recognize this fact it will be hard for the border to open.
The Turks are taught in school that such a thing never happened. Many
young Turks no say the same thing. But over the past ten years, via
the internet, they have been reading the true facts of history. Some
are now saying that the Armenians suffered many hardships and gave
countless lives and that Turks must come to grips with all that. It
is this understanding that is very important to me. If relations are
normalized, this process, not a political one but more spiritual,
can gain strength.
Ani Eblighatian - "The Turks are our intractable enemies"
In general, diaspora Armenians have a negative take on the protocols,
etc. Many say that it is good because the borders will open, there
will be economic development and links will be created with the
outside world.
But I believe that Turkey focuses more on its national interests than
Armenia does. I do not think that Armenia will come out in a better
position than Turkey.
I am originally from Syria. The borders there with Turkey have
been opened. People from both sides can travel across the border
without visas. I see the changes every year when I visit Syria. You
only see Turkish good in the markets. In Syria, when the border was
closed it was difficult at the start but later local manufacturing
developed. After the border opened, however, the markets have been
flooded with Turkish goods.
Perhaps, the same will happen in Armenia. Everyone will use Turkish
goods, thinking they are better. Turkey will have gained a new market
in Armenia but what will Armenia get in return? This is not the way
to bolster the internal manufacturing in Armenia.
The Turks have started to interfere in the internal politics of Syria
when it comes to Armenian affairs. In years past, April 24 was marked
on a much greater scale; books in Arabic regarding the genocide were
published; not any more. If the Turks can get away with this in Syria
what will happen in Armenia? We see all the books published in England
in which Armenian churches, monuments and even Armenian royalty are
claimed to be Turkish. They are falsifying the truth all over.
I don't have faith in any country. They all have their interests to
protect. The Turks are our most intractable enemy. I think Armenia
will suffer as a result.
The Turks will never recognize the Genocide and they will pressure
Armenia to conveniently forget the past as well once diplomatic
relations are established. Remember when they forced the Armenian
football team to remove Mt. Ararat from the uniform? If they went to
great lengths over such a minute symbol just think what they will do
to pervert historical reality.
http://hetq.am/en/politics/france-5/
20 09/09/28 | 18:12
Feature Stories politics
Seta Grigoryan, Hetq's correspondent in Paris spoke with a
cross-section of French-Armenians regarding recent developments in
Armenian-Turkish relations. Below are excerpts of the interviews.
Sahag Sukiasian (Historian; Director of "Maison Armenienne" at the
Cite Internationale Universitaire de Paris) - "There is an historical
record that Turkey must face up to"
Everyone has certain reservations - fears and concerns. This is
natural since Armenia and Turkey aren't random nations and your
average neighbors. There exists a deep chasm between the two and
the shadow of the genocide still reigns over their relations till
today. Everyone wishes normal relations with their neighbors and so
do we all; whether we live in Armenia or not.
First, let me say that I am glad that the opinions of the entire
Armenian people are being listened to since the issue at hand has
pan-national proportions. It doesn't merely impact on the Republic
of Armenia and its citizens. I read today that President Sargsyan
organized a roundtable discussion with various political forces. It
was a positive initiative and he noted that he would soon be touring
various disapora communities and listening to what people had to
say. You know, we are the direct inheritors of that history and thus
the issue is quite important to us. I see two main issues - opening
of the border and establishing relations.
Regarding the establishment of relations, I believe that the two
sides have much to do. But, I believe Turkey has the most work to
do. As an inheritor of that history I would argue that Turkey must
take the first step. Now I don't know how to proceed; should we set
preconditions or not? It would seem to me however that Turkey must
first recognize the Genocide. It is hard to enter into dialogue with a
nation that which is the successor to a state that committed Genocide
and now denies the fact. They could have acknowledged the truth.
I want to approach the issue as a historian and say that there is an
interesting phenomenon at work here. We can really say that during
the past year there has been actual progress made in normalizing
relations. But if Turkey today is thinking about dialogue we must
seriously ponder the matter and ask ourselves why. I see one motivating
reason. Today, Turkey's ruling elite has understood that the Kemalist
policy needs to be changed; that it cannot continue. This is especially
the case if they want to make it into the European Union. This they
came face to face with difficulties they thought that they might
reflect on their past.
They also know that by creating new links throughout the region their
international standing will also improve.
I think that the opening of the border is not at all a priority
right now. What is important is the process of familiarity and then
reconciliation. But I would also like to say that as a product of
that history I take a very strict and disciplined approach to the
matter. If the Turkish authorities have it in the heads that they can
call into question the reality of the Genocide and come up with new
definitions and conclusions, I am totally against the normalization
process; as an Armenian and a historian.
Antranig Khojasarian - "Beware of Turkey's ulterior motives"
Silence can be a sign of acceptance and till today the border issue
hasn't been recognized by Armenia. The opening of the border doesn't
correspond to the interests of Armenia. The Turkish mentality is based
on territory. Today it has powerful institutions and over 3 million
Turkified-Armenians. This is a huge advantage over Armenia. We, in the
diaspora, have one demand - Genocide recognition and not the opening
of the border. We will never give up the demand to review the past.
Turkey's aim is to prevent the recognition of the Genocide and the
consequences that would result. Turkey's aim isn't to establish normal
relations but to snare us in a diplomatic trap and thus extract as
many preconditions from us as possible.
The published protocols clearly show that the Armenian people will
pay a very high price indeed for the opening of the border and
establishment of diplomatic relations. There are episodes, times and
folds in the pages of our history that are being buried under mounds
of mud. If the border is opened, not only will current generations
pay that heavy price, but successive generations to follow.
If it transpires that the documents are ratified and signed and all
the traitorous demands are put in force, we will witness with our
own eyes the withering away of our country, the death of the Armenian
Cause and the first manifestations of widespread assimilation.
Dikran Yegavian (Journalist) - "The Diaspora and Armenia must go
their separate ways"
Let me start by saying that the first move was made last April when the
diaspora and Armenia squared off in opposition. We should understand
that Armenia has its priorities and agenda. We want the recognition
of the Genocide but Armenia doesn't have the resources or strength to
put the issue on the table. Thus, we are concerned that Armenia will
enter negotiations from a position of weakness. Then too, Turkey has
a rich diplomatic tradition. Armenia cannot comprehend all the facets
of Turkish diplomacy.
I am concerned that Armenia will lose its supremacy since it has no
laws to protect its property. This means that Turkish businessmen can
slowly buy up land in Armenia and take over. Turkish strategy is still
based on realizing its pan-Turkist ambitions with Azerbaijan. This
time they won't be brandishing swords.
I feel quite insulted by Armenia since once again, rather than asking
our opinion, they sold out the country and the memory of the Genocide
martyrs. Rather than help us, they hurt us. The Turks will bide their
time and prove that their conscience is clean. Regarding scientific
research, Armenia has won out but Turkey, knowing that Armenia is
in a weak position, will cleverly seek to bury the matter by opening
the border. This is a blow against the diaspora.
As a young diaspora-Armenian journalist, the time has come for the
diaspora to make a clean break with Armenia. While understanding that
our interests are different, I realize that the diaspora, sadly,
remains without a unifying structure. This is a great opportunity,
on a philosophical and spiritual level, for the diaspora to
develop. Public opinion in the diaspora says we are different from
Armenia. The diaspora is the consequence of a Disaster. We must split
from Armenia. I don't say we should hate Armenia. On the contrary; it
will be a split of the mind. Our politics must be different. Today,
what unites the diaspora isn't the Armenian language or religion;
it is the struggle being waged for Genocide recognition
Garbis Jaloian - "Armenia must chart its own foreign policy"
It is only natural that Armenia, as a country, a people, must decide
its own foreign policy. Armenia can't continue not having relations
with its neighbors. Armenia has mutual interests as well as Turkey. The
recognition of the Genocide must wait till later.
It is important that Turkey recognized the Genocide. Turkey has taken
some positive steps of late to get closer to Armenia. There is now
the opportunity for the two countries to strive for a resolution
of problems. The diaspora can express its own views but Armenia,
as an independent state, must decide its foreign policy based on its
own interests.
The Genocide is our burden but it must not stand in the way of
Armenia's development. We will arrive at a resolution through
diplomatic means. We must prepare ourselves psychologically. When
normal relations are created we can enter into a dialogue. I agree
that any talk of territorial concessions on the part of Turkey is an
impossibility. There are 7-8 million people living on those lands. The
only advantages to negotiations would first be the solving of the
Karabakh problem and then for Armenia to have access to the Black Sea.
Tovmas Stepanian - "President Sargsyan has blocked the road of
Genocide recognition"
President Sargsyan is today focused on Armenia's economic problems,
on personal interests. He isn't taking the regional picture into
account. Turkey is pressing ahead with a settlement to Karabakh. Turkey
is an ally of Azerbaijan and would like to see all of Artsakh revert
back to the Azeris. We fully realize that Turkey is out to protect
its interests in the region.
By agreeing to the sub-committee, President Sargsyan has blocked
the road of Genocide recognition. This also prevented U.S. President
Obama from uttering the word "genocide".
In this context I am very pessimistic for Armenia. Armenia will
continue to exist but it will have let slip by an opportunity when
it could have shined. The diaspora will also split. One segment will
support President Sargsyan and other will not. Turkey enjoys great
influence and is an ally of the United States and manipulates the
situation to its advantage.
Jirair Kivreshji - "The Armenian community in Turkey can serve as
a bridge"
I have no expectations. Both sides do not want to make concessions. As
an Armenian from Turkey I want to see normal relations. The
border must be opened but Karabakh must not be included as a
precondition. Generally, I am against the protocols; there is much
hidden there we don't know about.
There are two kinds of Turks. There are my friends who also want to
see normal relations. Then there is a very large segment that always
links the issue to Azerbaijan's interests. I always say that these
two issues must be separated. The Armenians of Turkey act like sort
of a bridge between the two societies. We Armenians of Bolis have our
own set of problems - with school education, churches, etc. Perhaps,
with normalized relations, teachers from Armenia could come here and
help out and for our culture to develop.
The protocols should include a reference to the Genocide. If the
Turks don't recognize this fact it will be hard for the border to open.
The Turks are taught in school that such a thing never happened. Many
young Turks no say the same thing. But over the past ten years, via
the internet, they have been reading the true facts of history. Some
are now saying that the Armenians suffered many hardships and gave
countless lives and that Turks must come to grips with all that. It
is this understanding that is very important to me. If relations are
normalized, this process, not a political one but more spiritual,
can gain strength.
Ani Eblighatian - "The Turks are our intractable enemies"
In general, diaspora Armenians have a negative take on the protocols,
etc. Many say that it is good because the borders will open, there
will be economic development and links will be created with the
outside world.
But I believe that Turkey focuses more on its national interests than
Armenia does. I do not think that Armenia will come out in a better
position than Turkey.
I am originally from Syria. The borders there with Turkey have
been opened. People from both sides can travel across the border
without visas. I see the changes every year when I visit Syria. You
only see Turkish good in the markets. In Syria, when the border was
closed it was difficult at the start but later local manufacturing
developed. After the border opened, however, the markets have been
flooded with Turkish goods.
Perhaps, the same will happen in Armenia. Everyone will use Turkish
goods, thinking they are better. Turkey will have gained a new market
in Armenia but what will Armenia get in return? This is not the way
to bolster the internal manufacturing in Armenia.
The Turks have started to interfere in the internal politics of Syria
when it comes to Armenian affairs. In years past, April 24 was marked
on a much greater scale; books in Arabic regarding the genocide were
published; not any more. If the Turks can get away with this in Syria
what will happen in Armenia? We see all the books published in England
in which Armenian churches, monuments and even Armenian royalty are
claimed to be Turkish. They are falsifying the truth all over.
I don't have faith in any country. They all have their interests to
protect. The Turks are our most intractable enemy. I think Armenia
will suffer as a result.
The Turks will never recognize the Genocide and they will pressure
Armenia to conveniently forget the past as well once diplomatic
relations are established. Remember when they forced the Armenian
football team to remove Mt. Ararat from the uniform? If they went to
great lengths over such a minute symbol just think what they will do
to pervert historical reality.