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Armenia Solidarity
c/p The Temple of POeace, Cathays Park, Cardiff
Email: [email protected]
Tel: 07718982732
The UK government denialist position is challanged by "Solidarity with
the Victims of All Genocides"
The following response was sent to Baroness Kinnock, minster of State at
the Foreign Office(The UK government spokesperson on Armenian and
Turkish affairs) by Eilian Williams of "Solidarity with the Victims of
All Genocides",challanging 14 of her assertions made in the House of
Lords debate this week. Below is her contribution to the Armenia debate
follwed by the responses in italics and in brackets
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Kinnock
of Holyhead):At the outset, I reaffirm that the Government deeply regret
the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Armenians who were either killed
by Ottoman troops or died from starvation or disease at the beginning of
the previous century.
1 ( you have omitted "during the forced marches into the deserts of
Syria)
We share the view expressed today that the victims of such suffering
should not be forgotten.
2 (Then why will you not accept the invitation to the Monument in
Cardiff- Baroness Cox extended to you an olive branch and you have
saddened all UK Armenians by rejecting it)
The fate of ethnic Armenians and smaller Christian minorities,
including the Assyrians, living in the Ottoman Empire at the time was
roundly and robustly condemned by the British Government.
3 ((The only record of this condemnation by the government in Hansard
is this by Lord Cecil on October 21 1915. Do you still stand by this?"I
think it may be said,without the least fear of exaggeration, that no
more horrible crime has been committed in the history of the world.....
This is a premeditive crime determined on long ago. It is part of the
deliberate policy... it was a long-considered, deliberate policy to
destroy and wipe out of existance the Armenians in Turkey. It was
systematically carried out . It was ordered from above , and when, as
happened on one or two ocassions, the local governors were anxious to
spare some of the children, or mitigate in some degree the horrors of
the operation, they were sternly ordered to go on with the work.... Not
only was this premeditated. There was no provocation whatsoever.....
There was no insurrection, no riot... The crime was a deliberate one ,
not to punish insurrection but to destroy the Armenian race.")
I confirm that the position of the Government is to continue to work for
rapprochement and reconciliation between Turkey and Armenia. In October
2009, two protocols were signed by the Foreign Ministers of both
countries, agreeing a framework for the normalisation of relations and
the opening of borders. This represents a landmark step in progressing
better relations between the two countries. Signing the protocols-a
number of noble Lords alluded to this-was not an easy step for either
country, and ratification will remain sensitive. The UK Government will
not make any statements that have the potential to jeopardise this
process
4 .(The Armenian Foreign Minister signed thje Protocols without
preconditiobns in order to open the border and remove the economic
blockade by Turkey. It is Turkey who is trying to link ratification to
Karabagh and stopping Armenia from lobbying for Genocide Recognition)
It is apparent that there is a strong political will, and indeed popular
support, for improving relations. The Armenian president and the Turkish
president have been focused and engaged in the process, which also
allows for the creation of a sub-committee to examine historical issues,
including the events of 1915-17.
5 (The Armenian President has written to the President of the
International Association of Genocide Scholars assuring him that Armenia
sees the role of the Comission as investigating the effects of the
Genocide not investigating whether there was a Genocide. In all of this
you are of course following British interests by siding with the strong
against the weak)
I shall now answer some of the questions that noble Lords asked. I say
to the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, that Geoffrey Robertson concluded that
while the 1948 UN Convention on Genocide could not be applied
retrospectively, the term "genocide" should be applied to the Armenian
massacres. "Genocide" is a precise term and its use is best assessed by
a competent court. However, then as now, there is no court with the
authority to make such an assessment. Therefore, it is inappropriate for
the British Government to apply the term to events on which no legal
judgment can be made.
6 ( Actions such as the murder of Abel by Cain happen before words
are invented to describe such actions. It is well known that Lemkin
coined the term Genocide to describe what happened to the Armenians.Does
coining a word to describe an action prevent its use to describe the
action which inspired its invention? One need not be a Philosophy
Graduate to follow this logic.)
I was aware last year that noble Lords had raised the issue of a
memorial. Sending a government representative might suggest recognition,
so, despite our sympathies for the tragedy, we do not intend to send a
representative.
7 (The Government has said before that its policy is not determined
by other countries. We now take that you are too fearful to lay flowers
to respect the memory of the 1.5 million victims in case Turkey realises
that you accept your own government's position on 21st October 1915 on
this crime of systematic extermination of the Armenians)
The Government reject any suggestion that Parliament has been misled,
8 ( an easy statement to make but you make no attempt to defend
yourselves against the damning evidence against the government in Mr
Robertson's Legal Opinion)
but I will also make it perfectly clear that Ministers, not officials,
are responsible for the statements that they make to Parliament.( if
this is so why do you contradict your own voting record in the European
Parliament in favour of Recognition)
The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, referred to recent resolutions and
decisions in the US Congress and the Swedish Riksdag. Those have not
changed the UK Government's view that it is for the Turkish and Armenian
people to address the issue together.
9 ( Britain's Foreign Policy in the 18th century led to Armenians
being exposed to Genocide. Russia was persuaded to yeild its role as
protector of the Armenians in order to serve British Imperial Interests.
Lloyd George said in 1932 (in "The Truth about Peace Treaties " : "The
actions of this (British ) government led to the massacres of 1894-96,
1909, and worst of all to the Holocaust of 1915") I will send you my "
Britain's 30 betrayals of the Armenians" to convince you of our
involvement. Also Britain signed the Lausanne treaty,in a way
legitimazing the genocide. Turkey's present borders are a reward for its
very succesful Genocide of the Armenians and Assyrians.This was probably
the most succesful Genocide in history. If there was no Genocide, then
Western (Turkish) Armenia still exists. But Turkey denies that Turkish
Armenia exists.
Neither the US nor the Swedish Government has changed its position as a
result of these votes.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, referred to the Blue Book, with which he
has a long association. As he pointed out, it contains many compelling
reports of eye-witness accounts of the events in question. It should be
considered alongside other documents relating to the events of 1915-16
in archives around the world. Our embassy in Ankara can certainly assist
in passing on a letter from UK parliamentarians to their Turkish
counterparts inviting dialogue over the validity of the Blue Book. I
understand that officials have already been in touch with the noble Lord
to take this forward It remains our view, with regard to those events,
that the greatest need is for dialogue between Turks and Armenians.
10 ( Turkish identity is built on a myth that there was no Genocide,
and there never was a Western Armenia. So where can any dialogue start
without Turkey being helped by friendly countries (the chief of which
seems to be the UK) to face their Armenian past and their "crime of
destroyng the Armenian race"- your government's words not mine)
However, on the issue of parliamentarians, in which the noble Lord,
Lord Avebury, has been extremely engaged, we can do only so much to
encourage Turkish parliamentarians to engage on the issue. I fear that,
to date, their response to the idea of a conference has been somewhat
negative, but of course any progress on such a front would be very
welcome and would represent more of the reconciliation which we all
want.
The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, and other noble Lords raised the issue of
deportations. Prime Minister Erdogan and the Foreign Minister have now
clarified that there is no immediate plan to deport illegal Armenian
immigrants from Turkey. President Gül has also clarified that Turkey
does not discriminate against Armenians working in Turkey.
11 ( Turkey is not even tolerant of the crypto-Armenians- the
grand-children of Genocide survivors who were forcibly Islamized. Has
the government ever looked into this minority? )
Subsequent comments by Turkish politicians have underlined the
tolerance shown by Turkey towards migrants. I repeat that it is for the
Turkish Government to manage migration issues and illegal immigration in
line with their international obligations and Turkish law.
On EU membership, which several noble Lords raised, the issue that we
are discussing today is not a precondition for Turkish membership of the
European Union. However, under the political criteria for membership,
Turkey is expected to maintain what is called in the criteria "good
neighbourly relations" with countries in the region, which of course
include Armenia. The issue of Nagorno-Karabakh was raised by noble
Lord, Lord Maginnis, and others.
13 If Nagorno Karabagh comes into the equation, then so does
Turkish-occupied Armenia (over 90% of historic Armenian land-mass)
The Presidents of Armenia and Azerbaijan have had useful and
constructive meetings in the framework of the Minsk group process,
including, most recently, at the end of January. We hope for continuing
progress. On the issue of our contacts, my honourable friend Chris
Bryant, Minister for Europe, discussed Turkey-Armenia relations with his
Turkish counterpart during the Turkish Prime Minister's recent visit,
and he lobbied his counterpart in January and February this year to
encourage progress on the normalisation of relations with Armenia.
The noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, raised a number of points. I may not
get round to them all, but if there is anything that I have not covered
in my response, she may expect me to give her a written answer as soon
as possible. Politically, the UK Government continue to urge both the
Armenian and Turkish Governments to move forward with the normalisation
process and to find ways to reconcile their differences. The Foreign
Secretary recently raised the issue with the Armenian President, we have
had many discussions with foreign ministers and others and, in-country,
our ambassadors are engaging on the issues.
14 You have made the Genocide issue as one which concerns Turkey and
the Armenian Republic. It concerns the 10million descendants of Genocide
survivors world -wide, over 20,000 of whom live in the UK and who are
dismayed by your comments. Please re-think the invitation to the
Monument in Cardiff before the election.
I would also seek to offer a compromise. The term Holocaust has been
used by Lloyd George, Churchill and the New York Times to describe the
Armenian experience.Is this term more acceptable to you? Or would you
prefer your own government's wording on October 21st 1915 of
"premeditive crime ....a deliberate policy to destroy and wipe out of
existance the Armenians in Turkey.... systematically carried out"
c/p The Temple of POeace, Cathays Park, Cardiff
Email: [email protected]
Tel: 07718982732
The UK government denialist position is challanged by "Solidarity with
the Victims of All Genocides"
The following response was sent to Baroness Kinnock, minster of State at
the Foreign Office(The UK government spokesperson on Armenian and
Turkish affairs) by Eilian Williams of "Solidarity with the Victims of
All Genocides",challanging 14 of her assertions made in the House of
Lords debate this week. Below is her contribution to the Armenia debate
follwed by the responses in italics and in brackets
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Kinnock
of Holyhead):At the outset, I reaffirm that the Government deeply regret
the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Armenians who were either killed
by Ottoman troops or died from starvation or disease at the beginning of
the previous century.
1 ( you have omitted "during the forced marches into the deserts of
Syria)
We share the view expressed today that the victims of such suffering
should not be forgotten.
2 (Then why will you not accept the invitation to the Monument in
Cardiff- Baroness Cox extended to you an olive branch and you have
saddened all UK Armenians by rejecting it)
The fate of ethnic Armenians and smaller Christian minorities,
including the Assyrians, living in the Ottoman Empire at the time was
roundly and robustly condemned by the British Government.
3 ((The only record of this condemnation by the government in Hansard
is this by Lord Cecil on October 21 1915. Do you still stand by this?"I
think it may be said,without the least fear of exaggeration, that no
more horrible crime has been committed in the history of the world.....
This is a premeditive crime determined on long ago. It is part of the
deliberate policy... it was a long-considered, deliberate policy to
destroy and wipe out of existance the Armenians in Turkey. It was
systematically carried out . It was ordered from above , and when, as
happened on one or two ocassions, the local governors were anxious to
spare some of the children, or mitigate in some degree the horrors of
the operation, they were sternly ordered to go on with the work.... Not
only was this premeditated. There was no provocation whatsoever.....
There was no insurrection, no riot... The crime was a deliberate one ,
not to punish insurrection but to destroy the Armenian race.")
I confirm that the position of the Government is to continue to work for
rapprochement and reconciliation between Turkey and Armenia. In October
2009, two protocols were signed by the Foreign Ministers of both
countries, agreeing a framework for the normalisation of relations and
the opening of borders. This represents a landmark step in progressing
better relations between the two countries. Signing the protocols-a
number of noble Lords alluded to this-was not an easy step for either
country, and ratification will remain sensitive. The UK Government will
not make any statements that have the potential to jeopardise this
process
4 .(The Armenian Foreign Minister signed thje Protocols without
preconditiobns in order to open the border and remove the economic
blockade by Turkey. It is Turkey who is trying to link ratification to
Karabagh and stopping Armenia from lobbying for Genocide Recognition)
It is apparent that there is a strong political will, and indeed popular
support, for improving relations. The Armenian president and the Turkish
president have been focused and engaged in the process, which also
allows for the creation of a sub-committee to examine historical issues,
including the events of 1915-17.
5 (The Armenian President has written to the President of the
International Association of Genocide Scholars assuring him that Armenia
sees the role of the Comission as investigating the effects of the
Genocide not investigating whether there was a Genocide. In all of this
you are of course following British interests by siding with the strong
against the weak)
I shall now answer some of the questions that noble Lords asked. I say
to the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, that Geoffrey Robertson concluded that
while the 1948 UN Convention on Genocide could not be applied
retrospectively, the term "genocide" should be applied to the Armenian
massacres. "Genocide" is a precise term and its use is best assessed by
a competent court. However, then as now, there is no court with the
authority to make such an assessment. Therefore, it is inappropriate for
the British Government to apply the term to events on which no legal
judgment can be made.
6 ( Actions such as the murder of Abel by Cain happen before words
are invented to describe such actions. It is well known that Lemkin
coined the term Genocide to describe what happened to the Armenians.Does
coining a word to describe an action prevent its use to describe the
action which inspired its invention? One need not be a Philosophy
Graduate to follow this logic.)
I was aware last year that noble Lords had raised the issue of a
memorial. Sending a government representative might suggest recognition,
so, despite our sympathies for the tragedy, we do not intend to send a
representative.
7 (The Government has said before that its policy is not determined
by other countries. We now take that you are too fearful to lay flowers
to respect the memory of the 1.5 million victims in case Turkey realises
that you accept your own government's position on 21st October 1915 on
this crime of systematic extermination of the Armenians)
The Government reject any suggestion that Parliament has been misled,
8 ( an easy statement to make but you make no attempt to defend
yourselves against the damning evidence against the government in Mr
Robertson's Legal Opinion)
but I will also make it perfectly clear that Ministers, not officials,
are responsible for the statements that they make to Parliament.( if
this is so why do you contradict your own voting record in the European
Parliament in favour of Recognition)
The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, referred to recent resolutions and
decisions in the US Congress and the Swedish Riksdag. Those have not
changed the UK Government's view that it is for the Turkish and Armenian
people to address the issue together.
9 ( Britain's Foreign Policy in the 18th century led to Armenians
being exposed to Genocide. Russia was persuaded to yeild its role as
protector of the Armenians in order to serve British Imperial Interests.
Lloyd George said in 1932 (in "The Truth about Peace Treaties " : "The
actions of this (British ) government led to the massacres of 1894-96,
1909, and worst of all to the Holocaust of 1915") I will send you my "
Britain's 30 betrayals of the Armenians" to convince you of our
involvement. Also Britain signed the Lausanne treaty,in a way
legitimazing the genocide. Turkey's present borders are a reward for its
very succesful Genocide of the Armenians and Assyrians.This was probably
the most succesful Genocide in history. If there was no Genocide, then
Western (Turkish) Armenia still exists. But Turkey denies that Turkish
Armenia exists.
Neither the US nor the Swedish Government has changed its position as a
result of these votes.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, referred to the Blue Book, with which he
has a long association. As he pointed out, it contains many compelling
reports of eye-witness accounts of the events in question. It should be
considered alongside other documents relating to the events of 1915-16
in archives around the world. Our embassy in Ankara can certainly assist
in passing on a letter from UK parliamentarians to their Turkish
counterparts inviting dialogue over the validity of the Blue Book. I
understand that officials have already been in touch with the noble Lord
to take this forward It remains our view, with regard to those events,
that the greatest need is for dialogue between Turks and Armenians.
10 ( Turkish identity is built on a myth that there was no Genocide,
and there never was a Western Armenia. So where can any dialogue start
without Turkey being helped by friendly countries (the chief of which
seems to be the UK) to face their Armenian past and their "crime of
destroyng the Armenian race"- your government's words not mine)
However, on the issue of parliamentarians, in which the noble Lord,
Lord Avebury, has been extremely engaged, we can do only so much to
encourage Turkish parliamentarians to engage on the issue. I fear that,
to date, their response to the idea of a conference has been somewhat
negative, but of course any progress on such a front would be very
welcome and would represent more of the reconciliation which we all
want.
The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, and other noble Lords raised the issue of
deportations. Prime Minister Erdogan and the Foreign Minister have now
clarified that there is no immediate plan to deport illegal Armenian
immigrants from Turkey. President Gül has also clarified that Turkey
does not discriminate against Armenians working in Turkey.
11 ( Turkey is not even tolerant of the crypto-Armenians- the
grand-children of Genocide survivors who were forcibly Islamized. Has
the government ever looked into this minority? )
Subsequent comments by Turkish politicians have underlined the
tolerance shown by Turkey towards migrants. I repeat that it is for the
Turkish Government to manage migration issues and illegal immigration in
line with their international obligations and Turkish law.
On EU membership, which several noble Lords raised, the issue that we
are discussing today is not a precondition for Turkish membership of the
European Union. However, under the political criteria for membership,
Turkey is expected to maintain what is called in the criteria "good
neighbourly relations" with countries in the region, which of course
include Armenia. The issue of Nagorno-Karabakh was raised by noble
Lord, Lord Maginnis, and others.
13 If Nagorno Karabagh comes into the equation, then so does
Turkish-occupied Armenia (over 90% of historic Armenian land-mass)
The Presidents of Armenia and Azerbaijan have had useful and
constructive meetings in the framework of the Minsk group process,
including, most recently, at the end of January. We hope for continuing
progress. On the issue of our contacts, my honourable friend Chris
Bryant, Minister for Europe, discussed Turkey-Armenia relations with his
Turkish counterpart during the Turkish Prime Minister's recent visit,
and he lobbied his counterpart in January and February this year to
encourage progress on the normalisation of relations with Armenia.
The noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, raised a number of points. I may not
get round to them all, but if there is anything that I have not covered
in my response, she may expect me to give her a written answer as soon
as possible. Politically, the UK Government continue to urge both the
Armenian and Turkish Governments to move forward with the normalisation
process and to find ways to reconcile their differences. The Foreign
Secretary recently raised the issue with the Armenian President, we have
had many discussions with foreign ministers and others and, in-country,
our ambassadors are engaging on the issues.
14 You have made the Genocide issue as one which concerns Turkey and
the Armenian Republic. It concerns the 10million descendants of Genocide
survivors world -wide, over 20,000 of whom live in the UK and who are
dismayed by your comments. Please re-think the invitation to the
Monument in Cardiff before the election.
I would also seek to offer a compromise. The term Holocaust has been
used by Lloyd George, Churchill and the New York Times to describe the
Armenian experience.Is this term more acceptable to you? Or would you
prefer your own government's wording on October 21st 1915 of
"premeditive crime ....a deliberate policy to destroy and wipe out of
existance the Armenians in Turkey.... systematically carried out"