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'TURKEY FIRST NEEDS TO MAKE PEACE WITH ARMENIANS IN TURKEY'
Today's Zaman
April 5 2010
Turkey
Hayko Bagdat, an Armenian who was born and raised in Turkey, says
peace between Turkish and Armenian people is more important for him
than Turkey's normalization of relations with Armenia because he
would like to have a "normalized life" in Turkey, where he lives.
"Turkey may or may not have good relations with Armenia. The first
thing Turkey needs to do is to make peace with Armenians in Turkey,
where you can find Armenian heritage everywhere," he told Today's
Zaman for Monday Talk.
"I understand the benefits of the normalization of relations with
Armenia from the perspective of realpolitik, but it is not enough
for me. For me, the important thing is to have normalization in my
daily life."
Born into an unusual family, with a Greek mother and an Armenian
father, he is married to a Turkish woman. Bagdat said he feels
comfortable where Turkish is spoken.
For Monday Talk we discussed various issues regarding the Armenian
community in Turkey, from who represents the community to the
community's expectations and concerns.
When we were talking about your life story, you told me that you are
an Armenian. You have been trying to emphasize the fact that there
are not many public figures among the Armenians to represent the
Armenian community living in Turkey, right?
You can write "Armenian" for my title. Recently, more people have
been looking for an Armenian to talk to in Turkey, where there are
not many Armenians left.
This issue leads me to ask you about the representation issue. A
Turkish-Armenian, Bedros Å~^irinoglu [the president of the board
of trustees of the Armenian Surp Pırgic Hospital], had a meeting
with Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, and Å~^irinoglu made
some statements following their meeting. As a result, a group of
Armenians started a petition emphasizing that Å~^irinoglu does not
represent them.
Could you talk about this?
Representation of Armenians is an issue that calls for debate as we
cannot talk about a homogenous Armenian community. Some people can
say that they are a religious community, but is there representation
of religious groups in secular Turkey? This tradition of religious
representation for Armenians is inherited from the times of the
Ottoman Empire. So that's where the Armenian Patriarchate comes from.
There are also frequent references to the Lausanne Treaty.
What is wrong with it?
There is a reference to it as if it can remedy all of our problems.
When you look at the issue from the perspective of the Lausanne Treaty,
it has often been the case that a group of Turkish citizens have been
held hostage in accordance with the logic of reciprocity. As a result,
Turkey's minority citizens have been treated by Turkey in accordance
with how other countries that signed the Lausanne Treaty treated
their own citizens of Turkish origin. Looking at the issue from this
perspective is a crime against humanity. It could have been the right
logic at the time the Lausanne Treaty was signed, but not anymore.
Does the Armenian patriarch represent Turkish-Armenians?
That's how it has been in practice, and this has made things easier
for both sides. But when Agos emerged, this representation was shaken.
What happens when a group of Armenians decide to publish a newspaper?
Who do they represent? These are legitimate questions. Such questions
have increasingly been voiced since Agos was founded.
'We suffered trauma too: Hrant died' Has there been a serious and
continuing conflict between Agos and the patriarchate?
There was a serious conflict between the Patriarch [Mesrob] Mutafyan
and Hrant Dink. But I am afraid we lost them both at the same time.
Mutafyan gave his last sensible address when Hrant Dink died. His
health failed after that. Now who is going to represent the Armenian
community?
Who will?
We can say that the Surp Pırgic Hospital is the biggest of the
Armenian community's institutions and that it has representative
power. If we go back to Bedros Å~^irinoglu's meeting with the
prime minister, it was requested by Å~^irinoglu some time ago in
order to show appreciation to the government for giving back some
properties it had taken. This visit came at a time when the prime
minister's image was damaged because he had threatened Armenia by
threatening to expel illegal Armenian workers in Turkey. The timing
of the appointment was right in that regard. And by looking at what
Å~^irinoglu said following their meeting, we can say that he doesn't
represent the Armenian community in Turkey. Still, he is the head
of an organization which is important for the Armenian community,
and he has a right to express his own views.
What exactly is bothersome here?
I know a joke: Some people take a group of Armenians to kill -- I'm
not talking about 1915 here, this is a joke. As they walk to their
death, one of them screams, saying that this is a terrible crime. A
fellow Armenian touches him on his shoulder and says, "Don't make them
angry." This is a familiar way of thinking for a lot of Armenians
who lived through the events of Sept. 6-7. It's an expression of
helplessness. But as the younger generation, we had more freedom and
courage, but we also suffered trauma, Hrant died. Still, we came out
of it by not having the same reactions that the older generation did.
So Å~^irinoglu's words are very problematic for us.
He said that what happened in Anatolia during World War I was a
"fight between two good friends."
It is not correct to have a debate over the number of deaths on
the two sides. A population that was here 100 years ago is not here
anymore, be it the result of genocide, a massacre, killings, forced
emigration, one side's right to defend his land or whatever you call
it. One hundred years ago, one in five people in this land spoke
Armenian. They're no longer here. And it cannot be explained by a
petty fight between two brothers. That statement was not a result of
naïveté. He was probably trying to create a circle of protection
around the Armenian community. But it hasn't worked because nobody
believes it. I bet even an ultranationalist was angry at him because
he might have thought that the Armenians were set free too easily. And
this was probably too much even for the AK Party [ruling Justice and
Development Party]. And we see the prime minister is still continuing
with the same rhetoric. Å~^irinoglu thanks the prime minister for
the return of eight properties. What about some 1,400 unreturned
properties? And why were those properties taken in the first place?
'Armenians disappeared from Turkish minds' What is the biggest problem
between Armenians and Turkish people in Turkey?
Let's put aside the physical disappearance of the Armenians from
this land, the most significant issue is the disappearance of the
Armenian from Turkish minds. When I go to talk on panel discussions
in different regions of Turkey, I ask them if they have ever seen an
Armenian. Every time the response I get is a "no." They are almost
shocked that an Armenian speaks perfect Turkish. Who are those
Armenians? Where did they come from? They have no idea.
Do you think talking about the Armenian issue is still taboo in Turkey?
Yes, it is. Let me explain. I don't want the return of properties
because I am not the head of some association with some property. They
have a right to ask for the return of their property. What I want is
this: People should neither have a better attitude toward me because I
am an Armenian nor they should say: "Look, there is an Armenian. Let's
go and get him." I am a citizen of this country where the prime
minister is also a citizen, and I have the same citizenship rights
as him. Why does he categorize me according to my ethnic origin? Why
does he designate me as a number? He doesn't have a right to do that.
Actually, what [Foreign Minister Ahmet] Davutoglu said was even
more dangerous. He said Armenia would not show the same sympathy
if a Turkish journalist was murdered in Armenia, as if Hrant Dink
was a journalist in Turkey from a different country. And we can
also discuss how much sympathy there has been here for Hrant Dink,
whose murderers were embraced by the security forces. While a group
of Turkish citizens feels great sorrow for the loss of Hrant Dink,
almost all public institutions have felt close to his murderers. There
are even people, for example Cemil Cicek, from the AK Party, who
made Hrant Dink a target, and he climbed the career ladder. [Former
Ä°stanbul Chief of Police] Celalettin Cerrah said 24 hours after
the assassination that the murder was committed by nationalist
sensitivities and that there was no connection to any organization.
This was what the murderer said: He committed the crime because his
nationalist pride dictated that he do so.
Don't you think the Armenian issue is being talked about much more
in Turkey today than it was a few years ago?
Yes, it has been because we paid the price for it. We lost one of
our friends, Hrant Dink. This society loves heroes who die alone in a
corner. I can ask you this question: Why didn't writers, journalists,
historians and intellectuals talk about the Armenian issue before? We
know there is an official history, like in other countries, but there
are also independent intellectuals. Where were they before?
Do you think the normalization of relations between Turkey and
Armenia could positively affect Turks' views of the Armenian issue
and Armenians?
I question why Turkey and Armenia feel the need to normalize their
relations. Is there a demand for that from society? This is probably
a result of the demands of international relations. Armenia is a
county in the Caucasus. Turkey may or may not have good relations
with Armenia. The first thing Turkey needs to do is to make peace with
Armenians in Turkey, where you can find Armenian heritage everywhere.
Is it going to be possible for a Turkish person to be upset about
what happened to Armenians? For example, I see pictures from the
past, destitute women and children in villages or somewhere else in
Turkey, and they look very much Turkish. I feel so sorry for them, so
sad. Can a Turk feel that for an Armenian because she is a human? The
prime minister embraced Roma people recently, and columnist Cengiz
Candar pointed out in his article that the prime minister could have
visited the KurtuluÅ~_ neighborhood [where most Armenians in Ä°stanbul
live]. So I understand the benefits of the normalization of relations
with Armenia from the perspective of realpolitik, but it is not enough
for me. For me, the important thing is to have normalization in my
daily life.
How close do you feel to Armenia or Armenians from Armenia? Do you
plan to visit the country?
I've been there once, and I did not have a chance to visit much of
the country. It's not in my vacation plans. As an Ä°stanbulite, I
don't feel very close to the Armenians from there. I feel comfortable
where Turkish is spoken. And I love Ä°stanbul.
BOX 1: 'Turkey may or may not have good relations with Armenia. The
first thing Turkey needs to do is to make peace with Armenians in
Turkey, where you can find Armenian heritage everywhere. Is it going
to be possible for a Turkish person to be upset about what happened to
the Armenians? ... I understand the benefits of the normalization of
relations with Armenia from the perspective of realpolitik, but it is
not enough for me. For me, the important thing is to have normalization
in my daily life'
BOX 2: 'I don't care what Obama says on April 24'
Do you attach importance to what President Barack Obama is going to
say on April 24?
I care about what Turkey and Turkish people say about it. I was at
the place where Obama had a talk with Turkish people when he visited
Ä°stanbul. If I were able to ask him a question, I would say that I
don't care what he says on April 24 because I know what happened. I
would like to ask Obama what people 50 years from now will call what
happened in Iraq and Palestine. What happened to the Armenians is an
issue that interests Turkey because the people who died were Turkey's
own citizens. So what Obama says would not change our reality. Why do
we care about what Obama is going to say on April 24? Let's put that
aside and not care about it. What is important is how a Turk feels
about Armenians. As I asked before, are they sorry because they are
human? Can Turkish newspapers publish a headline on April 24 saying
"I am sorry because I'm a human"?
BOX 3: Hayko Bagdat, lover of Ä°stanbul and the Turkish language
He was born in Ä°stanbul to a Greek mother and an Armenian father. He
studied in Armenian schools until he was accepted into Ä°stanbul
University's faculty of literature. However, his university life
was cut short after his father died and he had to run his father's
printing business. He did his military service in the province of
Tunceli in 1996. In 2003 he started his own radio show at YaÅ~_am
Radyo, the first radio station to broadcast Armenian songs in the
Republic of Turkey. He also wrote a column for the Turkish-Armenian
community's Marmara daily. He is among a group of people known as
"Friends of Hrant."
05 April 2010, Monday YONCA POYRAZ DOÄ~^AN Ä°STANBUL
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz -web/news-206403-8-turkey-first-needs-to-make-peac e-with-armenians-in-turkey.html
Today's Zaman
April 5 2010
Turkey
Hayko Bagdat, an Armenian who was born and raised in Turkey, says
peace between Turkish and Armenian people is more important for him
than Turkey's normalization of relations with Armenia because he
would like to have a "normalized life" in Turkey, where he lives.
"Turkey may or may not have good relations with Armenia. The first
thing Turkey needs to do is to make peace with Armenians in Turkey,
where you can find Armenian heritage everywhere," he told Today's
Zaman for Monday Talk.
"I understand the benefits of the normalization of relations with
Armenia from the perspective of realpolitik, but it is not enough
for me. For me, the important thing is to have normalization in my
daily life."
Born into an unusual family, with a Greek mother and an Armenian
father, he is married to a Turkish woman. Bagdat said he feels
comfortable where Turkish is spoken.
For Monday Talk we discussed various issues regarding the Armenian
community in Turkey, from who represents the community to the
community's expectations and concerns.
When we were talking about your life story, you told me that you are
an Armenian. You have been trying to emphasize the fact that there
are not many public figures among the Armenians to represent the
Armenian community living in Turkey, right?
You can write "Armenian" for my title. Recently, more people have
been looking for an Armenian to talk to in Turkey, where there are
not many Armenians left.
This issue leads me to ask you about the representation issue. A
Turkish-Armenian, Bedros Å~^irinoglu [the president of the board
of trustees of the Armenian Surp Pırgic Hospital], had a meeting
with Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, and Å~^irinoglu made
some statements following their meeting. As a result, a group of
Armenians started a petition emphasizing that Å~^irinoglu does not
represent them.
Could you talk about this?
Representation of Armenians is an issue that calls for debate as we
cannot talk about a homogenous Armenian community. Some people can
say that they are a religious community, but is there representation
of religious groups in secular Turkey? This tradition of religious
representation for Armenians is inherited from the times of the
Ottoman Empire. So that's where the Armenian Patriarchate comes from.
There are also frequent references to the Lausanne Treaty.
What is wrong with it?
There is a reference to it as if it can remedy all of our problems.
When you look at the issue from the perspective of the Lausanne Treaty,
it has often been the case that a group of Turkish citizens have been
held hostage in accordance with the logic of reciprocity. As a result,
Turkey's minority citizens have been treated by Turkey in accordance
with how other countries that signed the Lausanne Treaty treated
their own citizens of Turkish origin. Looking at the issue from this
perspective is a crime against humanity. It could have been the right
logic at the time the Lausanne Treaty was signed, but not anymore.
Does the Armenian patriarch represent Turkish-Armenians?
That's how it has been in practice, and this has made things easier
for both sides. But when Agos emerged, this representation was shaken.
What happens when a group of Armenians decide to publish a newspaper?
Who do they represent? These are legitimate questions. Such questions
have increasingly been voiced since Agos was founded.
'We suffered trauma too: Hrant died' Has there been a serious and
continuing conflict between Agos and the patriarchate?
There was a serious conflict between the Patriarch [Mesrob] Mutafyan
and Hrant Dink. But I am afraid we lost them both at the same time.
Mutafyan gave his last sensible address when Hrant Dink died. His
health failed after that. Now who is going to represent the Armenian
community?
Who will?
We can say that the Surp Pırgic Hospital is the biggest of the
Armenian community's institutions and that it has representative
power. If we go back to Bedros Å~^irinoglu's meeting with the
prime minister, it was requested by Å~^irinoglu some time ago in
order to show appreciation to the government for giving back some
properties it had taken. This visit came at a time when the prime
minister's image was damaged because he had threatened Armenia by
threatening to expel illegal Armenian workers in Turkey. The timing
of the appointment was right in that regard. And by looking at what
Å~^irinoglu said following their meeting, we can say that he doesn't
represent the Armenian community in Turkey. Still, he is the head
of an organization which is important for the Armenian community,
and he has a right to express his own views.
What exactly is bothersome here?
I know a joke: Some people take a group of Armenians to kill -- I'm
not talking about 1915 here, this is a joke. As they walk to their
death, one of them screams, saying that this is a terrible crime. A
fellow Armenian touches him on his shoulder and says, "Don't make them
angry." This is a familiar way of thinking for a lot of Armenians
who lived through the events of Sept. 6-7. It's an expression of
helplessness. But as the younger generation, we had more freedom and
courage, but we also suffered trauma, Hrant died. Still, we came out
of it by not having the same reactions that the older generation did.
So Å~^irinoglu's words are very problematic for us.
He said that what happened in Anatolia during World War I was a
"fight between two good friends."
It is not correct to have a debate over the number of deaths on
the two sides. A population that was here 100 years ago is not here
anymore, be it the result of genocide, a massacre, killings, forced
emigration, one side's right to defend his land or whatever you call
it. One hundred years ago, one in five people in this land spoke
Armenian. They're no longer here. And it cannot be explained by a
petty fight between two brothers. That statement was not a result of
naïveté. He was probably trying to create a circle of protection
around the Armenian community. But it hasn't worked because nobody
believes it. I bet even an ultranationalist was angry at him because
he might have thought that the Armenians were set free too easily. And
this was probably too much even for the AK Party [ruling Justice and
Development Party]. And we see the prime minister is still continuing
with the same rhetoric. Å~^irinoglu thanks the prime minister for
the return of eight properties. What about some 1,400 unreturned
properties? And why were those properties taken in the first place?
'Armenians disappeared from Turkish minds' What is the biggest problem
between Armenians and Turkish people in Turkey?
Let's put aside the physical disappearance of the Armenians from
this land, the most significant issue is the disappearance of the
Armenian from Turkish minds. When I go to talk on panel discussions
in different regions of Turkey, I ask them if they have ever seen an
Armenian. Every time the response I get is a "no." They are almost
shocked that an Armenian speaks perfect Turkish. Who are those
Armenians? Where did they come from? They have no idea.
Do you think talking about the Armenian issue is still taboo in Turkey?
Yes, it is. Let me explain. I don't want the return of properties
because I am not the head of some association with some property. They
have a right to ask for the return of their property. What I want is
this: People should neither have a better attitude toward me because I
am an Armenian nor they should say: "Look, there is an Armenian. Let's
go and get him." I am a citizen of this country where the prime
minister is also a citizen, and I have the same citizenship rights
as him. Why does he categorize me according to my ethnic origin? Why
does he designate me as a number? He doesn't have a right to do that.
Actually, what [Foreign Minister Ahmet] Davutoglu said was even
more dangerous. He said Armenia would not show the same sympathy
if a Turkish journalist was murdered in Armenia, as if Hrant Dink
was a journalist in Turkey from a different country. And we can
also discuss how much sympathy there has been here for Hrant Dink,
whose murderers were embraced by the security forces. While a group
of Turkish citizens feels great sorrow for the loss of Hrant Dink,
almost all public institutions have felt close to his murderers. There
are even people, for example Cemil Cicek, from the AK Party, who
made Hrant Dink a target, and he climbed the career ladder. [Former
Ä°stanbul Chief of Police] Celalettin Cerrah said 24 hours after
the assassination that the murder was committed by nationalist
sensitivities and that there was no connection to any organization.
This was what the murderer said: He committed the crime because his
nationalist pride dictated that he do so.
Don't you think the Armenian issue is being talked about much more
in Turkey today than it was a few years ago?
Yes, it has been because we paid the price for it. We lost one of
our friends, Hrant Dink. This society loves heroes who die alone in a
corner. I can ask you this question: Why didn't writers, journalists,
historians and intellectuals talk about the Armenian issue before? We
know there is an official history, like in other countries, but there
are also independent intellectuals. Where were they before?
Do you think the normalization of relations between Turkey and
Armenia could positively affect Turks' views of the Armenian issue
and Armenians?
I question why Turkey and Armenia feel the need to normalize their
relations. Is there a demand for that from society? This is probably
a result of the demands of international relations. Armenia is a
county in the Caucasus. Turkey may or may not have good relations
with Armenia. The first thing Turkey needs to do is to make peace with
Armenians in Turkey, where you can find Armenian heritage everywhere.
Is it going to be possible for a Turkish person to be upset about
what happened to Armenians? For example, I see pictures from the
past, destitute women and children in villages or somewhere else in
Turkey, and they look very much Turkish. I feel so sorry for them, so
sad. Can a Turk feel that for an Armenian because she is a human? The
prime minister embraced Roma people recently, and columnist Cengiz
Candar pointed out in his article that the prime minister could have
visited the KurtuluÅ~_ neighborhood [where most Armenians in Ä°stanbul
live]. So I understand the benefits of the normalization of relations
with Armenia from the perspective of realpolitik, but it is not enough
for me. For me, the important thing is to have normalization in my
daily life.
How close do you feel to Armenia or Armenians from Armenia? Do you
plan to visit the country?
I've been there once, and I did not have a chance to visit much of
the country. It's not in my vacation plans. As an Ä°stanbulite, I
don't feel very close to the Armenians from there. I feel comfortable
where Turkish is spoken. And I love Ä°stanbul.
BOX 1: 'Turkey may or may not have good relations with Armenia. The
first thing Turkey needs to do is to make peace with Armenians in
Turkey, where you can find Armenian heritage everywhere. Is it going
to be possible for a Turkish person to be upset about what happened to
the Armenians? ... I understand the benefits of the normalization of
relations with Armenia from the perspective of realpolitik, but it is
not enough for me. For me, the important thing is to have normalization
in my daily life'
BOX 2: 'I don't care what Obama says on April 24'
Do you attach importance to what President Barack Obama is going to
say on April 24?
I care about what Turkey and Turkish people say about it. I was at
the place where Obama had a talk with Turkish people when he visited
Ä°stanbul. If I were able to ask him a question, I would say that I
don't care what he says on April 24 because I know what happened. I
would like to ask Obama what people 50 years from now will call what
happened in Iraq and Palestine. What happened to the Armenians is an
issue that interests Turkey because the people who died were Turkey's
own citizens. So what Obama says would not change our reality. Why do
we care about what Obama is going to say on April 24? Let's put that
aside and not care about it. What is important is how a Turk feels
about Armenians. As I asked before, are they sorry because they are
human? Can Turkish newspapers publish a headline on April 24 saying
"I am sorry because I'm a human"?
BOX 3: Hayko Bagdat, lover of Ä°stanbul and the Turkish language
He was born in Ä°stanbul to a Greek mother and an Armenian father. He
studied in Armenian schools until he was accepted into Ä°stanbul
University's faculty of literature. However, his university life
was cut short after his father died and he had to run his father's
printing business. He did his military service in the province of
Tunceli in 1996. In 2003 he started his own radio show at YaÅ~_am
Radyo, the first radio station to broadcast Armenian songs in the
Republic of Turkey. He also wrote a column for the Turkish-Armenian
community's Marmara daily. He is among a group of people known as
"Friends of Hrant."
05 April 2010, Monday YONCA POYRAZ DOÄ~^AN Ä°STANBUL
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz -web/news-206403-8-turkey-first-needs-to-make-peac e-with-armenians-in-turkey.html