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SPIEGEL Interview With Turkey's PM: 'There Can Be No Talk Of Genocid

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  • SPIEGEL Interview With Turkey's PM: 'There Can Be No Talk Of Genocid

    SPIEGEL INTERVIEW WITH TURKEY'S PRIME MINISTER 'THERE CAN BE NO TALK OF GENOCIDE'

    Der Spiegel
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/ 0,1518,686131,00.html
    March 29 2010
    Germany

    In a SPIEGEL interview, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan,
    56, discusses Ankara's relationship with the European Union, the
    debate over genocide against the Armenians and his role as a mediator
    in the dispute over Iran's nuclear policy.

    SPIEGEL: Mr. Prime Minister, your country is currently giving a
    confusing impression. It is more modern and open than it was before you
    came into office, and yet it is also more pious and Islamic. Where are
    you taking Turkey: toward the West, toward Europe or toward the East?

    Erdogan: Turkey has changed considerably and has been modernized
    in the last seven-and-a-half years. Unlike previous governments,
    we take the founder of the republic, (Mustafa Kemal) Ataturk, at his
    word and are trying to bring the country to the level of contemporary
    civilization. In doing so, we look in all directions. We don't turn
    our face from the East when we look to the West. We see this as a
    process of normalization.

    SPIEGEL: The first thing a visitor sees after passport control at the
    airport in Istanbul is an enormous display of the duty free shop's
    alcohol department and a poster advertising an exhibit of the revealing
    work of the late Picasso. In the Mediterranean city of Alanya, on the
    other hand, there are hotels with separate beaches for men and women,
    which would have been unthinkable a few years ago.

    Erdogan: What you saw upon arrival at the airport is a nice expression
    of freedom. What you say about Alanya is something I hear for the first
    time. But even if it's true, it too is a manifestation of freedom. The
    owner of a hotel like that, and his guests, are exercising a right
    that we have to respect.

    SPIEGEL: This week, you will host German Chancellor Angela Merkel,
    who doesn't want Turkey to join the European Union anytime soon. What
    will you say to her?

    Erdogan: Turkey submitted its application for associate membership in
    the European Economic Community in 1959. That was 51 years ago. No
    other country was subjected to such a procedure, and yet we have
    remained patient. Nowadays, however, we are no longer a country
    that is merely seeking membership in the European Union. Instead,
    we are already negotiating for full membership. If proposals are
    submitted to us today that diverge from the agreed framework of these
    negotiations ...

    SPIEGEL: You are referring to the "privileged partnership," which
    Chancellor Merkel prefers over full membership for Turkey.

    Erdogan: ... then this is just as strange as someone changing the
    penalty rule in the middle of a football match.

    SPIEGEL: Your government is trying to shape Turkey into a new regional
    power. Why do you need Europe at all anymore?

    Erdogan: It isn't about what we need, but about a mutual need. Turkey
    is not a burden for Europe. On the contrary, it takes a burden away
    from the EU. Together with Spain, we run the United Nations Alliance
    of Civilizations initiative against extremism, which benefits Europe.

    We have been a member of the customs union since 1996, and we satisfy
    the political criteria established in Copenhagen. In fact, we are
    even closer to fulfilling the economic Maastricht criteria than some
    EU member states. And then there is the fact that we are a founding
    member of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development
    (OECD) and have been a member of NATO since 1952. This makes us a
    bridge between the West and 1.4 billion Muslims.

    SPIEGEL: Turkey has become very self-confident, and you are considered
    to be one of the most influential leaders the country has had since
    Ataturk. Do you see yourself in the role of a "sultan," as some
    supporters, but also critics, describe you?

    Erdogan: I am the chairman of a major party that was founded by the
    people. Therefore, I would never compare myself with Ataturk, the man
    who founded the republic. I have no intention of becoming a padishah,
    a ultan. It's enough for me when people say good things about me.

    Part 2: 'We Will Be Prepared to Accept Our History'

    SPIEGEL: Why doesn't modern Turkey acknowledge the Ottoman Empire's
    genocide against the Armenians? The Foreign Affairs Committee of
    the United States House of Representatives has approved an Armenian
    Genocide resolution ...

    Erdogan: When a journalist uses the word genocide, he should take
    a careful look at the issue first. There can be no talk of genocide
    against the Armenians. Genocide is a legal term. In 2005, I wrote a
    letter to then-Armenian President Robert Kocharian, in which I told
    him that this is not a matter for politicians like us, but one that
    needs to be studied by historians. There are currently millions of
    documents on the subject in Turkish archives, of which more than 1
    million have been examined since I wrote to Kocharian. If there are
    archives in your country, I wrote to him, then make them accessible.

    And if historians cannot clarify the subject sufficiently, then
    let lawyers, political scientists and archaeologists take part in
    the effort.

    SPIEGEL: Armenians say that commissions of historians are just the
    best way to put off such disputes indefinitely. And we disagree with
    the notion that politicians should not talk about genocide. One person
    who has used this word is the current American president.

    Erdogan: If he used the word, then he did so in error. A word doesn't
    become more correct because a president uses it. And besides, the
    United States is not a party to this matter. America, like other
    countries, is merely a bystander here. We and the Armenians are the
    only participants. This is our history. The Turkish Republic had
    not yet been founded in 1915. It was the era of the Ottoman Empire,
    which was allied with Germany at the time.

    SPIEGEL: Isn't the republic the legal successor of the Ottoman Empire?

    Erdogan: Turkey was undoubtedly founded on what was left of the
    Ottoman Empire. No nation can deny its ancestry. Anyone who denies
    his ancestry is committing a sin. If something serious comes to light
    after the historical examination of the past, we will be prepared to
    accept our history. But it's important that the Armenians are also
    willing to accept their history.

    SPIEGEL: What history should the Armenians accept in this regard?

    Erdogan: This was not a mass murder committed by one side against
    the other, but a battle, one that claimed the lives of Turks and
    Armenians, who were loyal citizens of the Ottoman Empire. However,
    some of them were later controlled by foreign powers and rose up in
    an insurrection. This has to be studied very carefully.

    SPIEGEL: Why have you further inflamed an already difficult debate
    by mentioning the possibility of deporting all of Armenians working
    illegally in Turkey?

    Erdogan: It saddens me that you see it this way. I talked about what
    we could do. For years, we have tolerated Armenians without residence
    permits. All I said was that this doesn't always have to be the case.

    The problem of illegal workers is discussed openly all over the
    world, but when someone in Turkey makes such a statement, people feel
    troubled. Why?

    SPIEGEL: Why do you want to punish Armenians in Turkey for genocide
    resolutions adopted abroad -- like the one in the United States and,
    most recently, in Sweden?

    Erdogan: Who says that we hold Armenians responsible for this? I
    never said that. We began a process of rapprochement between Turkey
    and Armenia a year ago. We want to normalize our relations. And then
    the Foreign Affairs Committee in the US Congress, at the behest of
    the Armenian diaspora, suddenly adopts a resolution that describes
    the events of 1915 as genocide. This is not helpful. We turn to the
    Armenian diaspora and those countries that support the diaspora:
    There are Armenians in Turkey who are Turkish citizens, and there
    are those who live in our country illegally. So far, we have not
    considered the question of deportation, but if the diaspora continues
    to exert pressure, we could imagine ourselves capable of doing that.

    SPIEGEL: You refuse to accept the term genocide, and yet you yourself
    use it frequently. For example, you accuse Israel of genocide in the
    Gaza Strip. On the other hand, you defend Sudanese President Omar
    al-Bashir by saying that a Muslim cannot commit genocide. Are Muslims
    somehow better people than Jews or Christians?

    Erdogan: You take my words completely out of context. I'm not walking
    into that trap. I said that, to a certain extent, one could describe
    the events in Gaza as genocide: 1,400 people died there, many of them
    killed by phosphorus ammunition, more than 5,000 people were wounded
    and 5,000 families became homeless.

    SPIEGEL: And what about Sudan?

    Erdogan: In that case, I was talking about a principle. I am a Muslim.

    But I have never compared my religion with other religions. I said that
    a Muslim could not commit genocide the way the United Nations defines
    it. Islam is a religion of peace. Muslims believe that someone who
    kills an innocent person behaves as if he were killing all of humanity.

    SPIEGEL: Turkey is currently a non-permanent member of the UN Security
    Council. It is also under consideration to be the country through
    which an exchange of uranium enriched in Iran could take place. Will
    you support sanctions against Tehran? The International Atomic Energy
    Agency (IAEA), has doubts about the peaceful nature of the nuclear
    program.

    Erdogan: That's wrong. The IAEA never made that conclusion.

    SPIEGEL: In its latest report, it clearly stated that Tehran has not
    cooperated sufficiently to rule out non-peaceful use.

    Erdogan: I take a different view. Iran offered to transport its
    enriched uranium to another country, and the Iranians wanted nuclear
    fuel in return. The question, now, is where this exchange is to take
    place. Former IAEA Director Mohammed ElBaradei proposed Turkey. The
    Americans were opposed to it at first, but then they agreed. Now we
    are waiting for an answer from Iran. Iran seemed to be considering
    this possibility, but then the connection was cut off.

    SPIEGEL: If Iran refuses, will you support sanctions?

    Erdogan: First we have to try to find a diplomatic solution for the
    problem. Sanctions have been imposed against Iran several times,
    but what's the result? Aren't any American or German goods reaching
    Iran now? They are, indirectly. Of course there is Mercedes in
    Iran. And Peugeot, too. I like to speak openly. I hate hiding things
    in politics. What we need is diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy. Anything
    else will do nothing but threaten global peace. And don't those who
    are exerting pressure have nuclear bombs of their own? Turkey isn't
    a nuclear power, but there is one country in this region that does
    have nuclear weapons.

    SPIEGEL: You mean Israel.

    Erdogan: Iran doesn't have any nuclear weapons now, at any rate. We
    say very clearly: We don't want any nuclear weapons in our region.

    SPIEGEL: Have you made this just as clear to Iranian President
    Mahmoud Ahmadinejad?

    Erdogan: Of course. I speak as openly with him as I do with you. We
    don't want any nuclear weapons in this region.

    SPIEGEL: Mr. Prime Minister, thank you for this interview.

    Interview conducted by Daniel Steinvorth and Bernhard Zand.
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