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ARMENIA COULD BE A MEDIATOR IN RUSSIAN-GEORGIAN NEGOTIATIONS
ArmInfo
2010-03-29 18:14:00
Interview of Paata Zakareishvili, Georgian expert, Director of the
Institute for Nationalism and Conflict Studies, with ArmInfo news
agency
Mr. Zakareishvili, the Georgian authorities have recently raised new
accusations against Vahagn Chakhalyan, Leader of the "United Javakhq"
Democratic Alliance, and other Armenian activists demanding social
reforms. What are these new repressions against them conditioned by?
I'd like to make no comments now as judicial proceedings are underway.
His lawyers have managed to move the case to Strasbourg and I am sure
that the court will deliver a fair verdict. The most important thing
is that the proceedings are underway.
There is an opinion that the given repressions are connected with
the forthcoming election to local self-government bodies of Georgia.
I do not think so. I think this was most likely connected with the
parliamentary election, when the Georgian authorities realized that
not all the population of Javakheti voted for pro-power parties. The
authorities identified those who voted for other parties and started
repressions against them. Unfortunately, there were such facts. The
situation in Samtskhe-Javakheti is calm at present, and the authorities
took control of it via social reforms, having repaired the roads
and solved the problems with gas and electric power supply. Over the
last year the population in the region made no demands to Tbilisi,
which shows that the situation there is much calmer than before.
Does it mean that there are no problems in Javakheti now?
Undoubtedly, there are fewer problems in this region at present.
However, the remaining problems have become bigger and it is difficult
to solve them. Roads have been built, gas and electricity are also
available there, however, there are still such unsolved problems of
public nature as education, entry to Georgian university, study of the
Georgian language, use of the Armenian language, conduct of judicial
proceedings, etc. I think no authorities can solve all these problems
at once. Some problems are solved quickly, and some of them - slowly.
When there is stagnation, the authorities may be strongly criticized.
But when the process is running and there is dynamics, the authorities
should be given an opportunity to solve the problems.
Many experts think that possible opening of the Armenian-Turkish
border will cause a problem of Turk-Meskhets' returning to Javakheti.
May this destabilize the situation in Samtskhe-Javakheti?
We call them not Turk-Meskhets, but Muslim-Meskhets. The word
expression 'Turk-Meskhets' was invented in Soviet laboratories,
as when they were expelled they were not Turks but they became
Turks later. Many of them were Georgians, Azerbaijanis, maybe even
Armenians. I think they have the same rights like other citizens. It is
the last nation for whom World War II has not been finished yet. It is
not their fault that Stalin did not trust them. If I protect Armenians
I should also protect Turk-Meskhets. The authorities of Georgia should
persuade the population that Meskhets are not a problem. Moreover,
the majority of Muslim-Meskhets will not come back to Javakheti or
Meskhetia, they will chiefly return to Guria and Imeretia regions
of Georgia. The Georgian authorities understand that problems may
arise. For this reason they do as much as possible to populate these
people with comfort in the entire territory of the country to avoid
any problems. These people have a right to come back to Georgia and
I come out for their returning. Maximum 5 thsd people may move from
Turkey. This is a very small number for Georgians and Armenians to
scare anything, especially taking into account the fact that these
people have never created problems where they lived. They have their
own culture. They are industrious and law-abiding people. I don't
think it is a problem to be manipulated all the time.
On March 1 the Verkhniy Lars checkpoint was opened. Who was opening
of the given checkpoint beneficial to first of all?
This was first of all beneficial to Georgian-Armenian relations. I am
happy for the Georgian government to have will and enough courage to
step over its insult to Russia and open that checkpoint. I am sure
if this checkpoint functions well, Armenia as well as Russia will
understand that it will be not bad for Georgia as well to use it.
Anyway, the open checkpoint is better than the closed one, as it
serves to the benefit of the Armenian people. It has enhanced trust
between Armenia and Georgia. It is known that the negotiations on
opening the checkpoint were held in Yerevan, too, with participation
of Armenian mediators. I am sure this will serve to consolidation
of Georgian-Armenian relations and mutual understanding, thanks to
which it will be easier to solve other problems, which, unfortunately,
exist between us. The example of Lars is one of the best examples of
the Georgian-Armenian relations. Georgian authorities have finally
understood that Armenia must not be because of Russia.
Under what conditions may a dialogue start between Tbilisi and Moscow?
It is very much hard to speak about the prospect of reconciliation
with Russia until there are Russian embassies in Sukhumi and
Tskhinvali. There is a conflict between Russia and Georgia and we
need a mediator. For instance, there is, unfortunately, a conflict
also between Armenia and Azerbaijan, and the OSCE Minsk Group is
your mediator, which is trying to make the negotiations easier and
protect the interests of all the parties. Someone should undertake
similar mediation between Russia and Georgia, and Armenia could do
that. Why not? If Armenia mediated the conflict instead of Switzerland,
it would be much easier so settle some problems. But Armenia has its
own problems in the region, particularly, with Azerbaijan and Turkey.
Nevertheless, if I were a representative of Georgian authorities,
I'd try to involve the neighbors in the process. I think that today
Georgia is far away from reconciliation with Russia. The formula
should be the following - "everything except restoration of the
diplomatic relations". That is to say, we cannot restore diplomatic
relations until there are Russian embassies in Sukhumi and Tskhinvali,
Georgia needs Russia as much as the latter needs Georgia. Anyway,
Georgia is one of the most important players in the South Caucasus as
we have ports and the most important communication ways pass via the
territory of our country. I am sure the time will come when Russia
will feel that it needs good relations with Georgia.
How do you assess the prospects of normalization of the relations
between Armenia and Turkey?
One can only welcome the process of reconciliation between Yerevan
and Ankara because this is one of the most protracted and hardest
conflicts in the region based on the hard and horrible historical
experience of the Armenian Genocide. Normalization of the relations
between Armenia and Turkey will have a positive effect not only on
the two countries, but also on the whole region. This means that if
such a hard problem can be resolved, the rest of the conflicts are
also resolvable. Rapprochement with Yerevan will strengthen Turkey's
positions in the region as today Ankara is somewhat restricted in its
actions. Everybody knows what really happened in 1915 but Turks are
forced to hush this up for political reasons. If they are relieved
of this burden, they will find it easier to speak to Armenia and the
world, as this is the main thing the world community blames Turkey
for. As soon as Turkey gets rid of this burden, it will become a
serious player in the South Caucasus, get more influence on Azerbaijan
for Baku's stance to become more flexible in the Karabakh problem.
Normal relations with Turkey will allow Armenia to get more actively
involved in global processes. So, Armenian-Turkish rapprochement
will be big success for the whole region. If not the Armenian-Turkish
confrontation there would be no Nagorny Karabakh conflict. Normalized
Armenian-Turkish relations will have a positive effect on the Karabakh
peace process.
bMay normalization of the Armenian-Turkish relations reduce the role
of Georgia as a transit country for energy resources?
No, I do not think so. The world is expanding, contacts are increasing,
and a lot of commodities are moving along the whole globe.
If there are no problems between Armenia and Turkey, this may lead to
even bigger inflow of commodities and investments to the region. The
region will become much safer. Therefore, I am sure that Georgia will
not suffer from this. When your neighbors live well, you cannot live
badly. This is absurdity. That is why I think it is not serious to say
that opening of the Armenian-Turkish border will result in reduction
of significance of Georgia as a transit country.
ArmInfo
2010-03-29 18:14:00
Interview of Paata Zakareishvili, Georgian expert, Director of the
Institute for Nationalism and Conflict Studies, with ArmInfo news
agency
Mr. Zakareishvili, the Georgian authorities have recently raised new
accusations against Vahagn Chakhalyan, Leader of the "United Javakhq"
Democratic Alliance, and other Armenian activists demanding social
reforms. What are these new repressions against them conditioned by?
I'd like to make no comments now as judicial proceedings are underway.
His lawyers have managed to move the case to Strasbourg and I am sure
that the court will deliver a fair verdict. The most important thing
is that the proceedings are underway.
There is an opinion that the given repressions are connected with
the forthcoming election to local self-government bodies of Georgia.
I do not think so. I think this was most likely connected with the
parliamentary election, when the Georgian authorities realized that
not all the population of Javakheti voted for pro-power parties. The
authorities identified those who voted for other parties and started
repressions against them. Unfortunately, there were such facts. The
situation in Samtskhe-Javakheti is calm at present, and the authorities
took control of it via social reforms, having repaired the roads
and solved the problems with gas and electric power supply. Over the
last year the population in the region made no demands to Tbilisi,
which shows that the situation there is much calmer than before.
Does it mean that there are no problems in Javakheti now?
Undoubtedly, there are fewer problems in this region at present.
However, the remaining problems have become bigger and it is difficult
to solve them. Roads have been built, gas and electricity are also
available there, however, there are still such unsolved problems of
public nature as education, entry to Georgian university, study of the
Georgian language, use of the Armenian language, conduct of judicial
proceedings, etc. I think no authorities can solve all these problems
at once. Some problems are solved quickly, and some of them - slowly.
When there is stagnation, the authorities may be strongly criticized.
But when the process is running and there is dynamics, the authorities
should be given an opportunity to solve the problems.
Many experts think that possible opening of the Armenian-Turkish
border will cause a problem of Turk-Meskhets' returning to Javakheti.
May this destabilize the situation in Samtskhe-Javakheti?
We call them not Turk-Meskhets, but Muslim-Meskhets. The word
expression 'Turk-Meskhets' was invented in Soviet laboratories,
as when they were expelled they were not Turks but they became
Turks later. Many of them were Georgians, Azerbaijanis, maybe even
Armenians. I think they have the same rights like other citizens. It is
the last nation for whom World War II has not been finished yet. It is
not their fault that Stalin did not trust them. If I protect Armenians
I should also protect Turk-Meskhets. The authorities of Georgia should
persuade the population that Meskhets are not a problem. Moreover,
the majority of Muslim-Meskhets will not come back to Javakheti or
Meskhetia, they will chiefly return to Guria and Imeretia regions
of Georgia. The Georgian authorities understand that problems may
arise. For this reason they do as much as possible to populate these
people with comfort in the entire territory of the country to avoid
any problems. These people have a right to come back to Georgia and
I come out for their returning. Maximum 5 thsd people may move from
Turkey. This is a very small number for Georgians and Armenians to
scare anything, especially taking into account the fact that these
people have never created problems where they lived. They have their
own culture. They are industrious and law-abiding people. I don't
think it is a problem to be manipulated all the time.
On March 1 the Verkhniy Lars checkpoint was opened. Who was opening
of the given checkpoint beneficial to first of all?
This was first of all beneficial to Georgian-Armenian relations. I am
happy for the Georgian government to have will and enough courage to
step over its insult to Russia and open that checkpoint. I am sure
if this checkpoint functions well, Armenia as well as Russia will
understand that it will be not bad for Georgia as well to use it.
Anyway, the open checkpoint is better than the closed one, as it
serves to the benefit of the Armenian people. It has enhanced trust
between Armenia and Georgia. It is known that the negotiations on
opening the checkpoint were held in Yerevan, too, with participation
of Armenian mediators. I am sure this will serve to consolidation
of Georgian-Armenian relations and mutual understanding, thanks to
which it will be easier to solve other problems, which, unfortunately,
exist between us. The example of Lars is one of the best examples of
the Georgian-Armenian relations. Georgian authorities have finally
understood that Armenia must not be because of Russia.
Under what conditions may a dialogue start between Tbilisi and Moscow?
It is very much hard to speak about the prospect of reconciliation
with Russia until there are Russian embassies in Sukhumi and
Tskhinvali. There is a conflict between Russia and Georgia and we
need a mediator. For instance, there is, unfortunately, a conflict
also between Armenia and Azerbaijan, and the OSCE Minsk Group is
your mediator, which is trying to make the negotiations easier and
protect the interests of all the parties. Someone should undertake
similar mediation between Russia and Georgia, and Armenia could do
that. Why not? If Armenia mediated the conflict instead of Switzerland,
it would be much easier so settle some problems. But Armenia has its
own problems in the region, particularly, with Azerbaijan and Turkey.
Nevertheless, if I were a representative of Georgian authorities,
I'd try to involve the neighbors in the process. I think that today
Georgia is far away from reconciliation with Russia. The formula
should be the following - "everything except restoration of the
diplomatic relations". That is to say, we cannot restore diplomatic
relations until there are Russian embassies in Sukhumi and Tskhinvali,
Georgia needs Russia as much as the latter needs Georgia. Anyway,
Georgia is one of the most important players in the South Caucasus as
we have ports and the most important communication ways pass via the
territory of our country. I am sure the time will come when Russia
will feel that it needs good relations with Georgia.
How do you assess the prospects of normalization of the relations
between Armenia and Turkey?
One can only welcome the process of reconciliation between Yerevan
and Ankara because this is one of the most protracted and hardest
conflicts in the region based on the hard and horrible historical
experience of the Armenian Genocide. Normalization of the relations
between Armenia and Turkey will have a positive effect not only on
the two countries, but also on the whole region. This means that if
such a hard problem can be resolved, the rest of the conflicts are
also resolvable. Rapprochement with Yerevan will strengthen Turkey's
positions in the region as today Ankara is somewhat restricted in its
actions. Everybody knows what really happened in 1915 but Turks are
forced to hush this up for political reasons. If they are relieved
of this burden, they will find it easier to speak to Armenia and the
world, as this is the main thing the world community blames Turkey
for. As soon as Turkey gets rid of this burden, it will become a
serious player in the South Caucasus, get more influence on Azerbaijan
for Baku's stance to become more flexible in the Karabakh problem.
Normal relations with Turkey will allow Armenia to get more actively
involved in global processes. So, Armenian-Turkish rapprochement
will be big success for the whole region. If not the Armenian-Turkish
confrontation there would be no Nagorny Karabakh conflict. Normalized
Armenian-Turkish relations will have a positive effect on the Karabakh
peace process.
bMay normalization of the Armenian-Turkish relations reduce the role
of Georgia as a transit country for energy resources?
No, I do not think so. The world is expanding, contacts are increasing,
and a lot of commodities are moving along the whole globe.
If there are no problems between Armenia and Turkey, this may lead to
even bigger inflow of commodities and investments to the region. The
region will become much safer. Therefore, I am sure that Georgia will
not suffer from this. When your neighbors live well, you cannot live
badly. This is absurdity. That is why I think it is not serious to say
that opening of the Armenian-Turkish border will result in reduction
of significance of Georgia as a transit country.