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mediamax, Armenia
Aug 26 2011
Georgian Ambassador: `It's not serious to think that Yerevan may ever
recognize the independence of Abkhazia and Southern Ossetia'
Thursday 25 August 2011 23:26
Exclusive interview of Ambassador of Georgia to Armenia Tengiz
Sharmanashvili to Mediamax
- Early presidential elections are held in Abkhazia today. What is the
official Tbilisi's stance in this respect?
- These are illegitimate elections. They are illegitimate in several
aspects. First of all, Abkhazia is not a subject of international law
to conduct elections as in a sovereign state. Secondly, there were
ethnic cleansings there and over 250 000 Georgians as well as
Armenians, Estonians and many Abkhazians themselves had to leave
Abkhazia. Besides, this illegitimate action takes place on the
territories which have been illegally occupied by foreign armed forces
- namely by Russia. We can't consider elections what is currently
going on in Abkhazia. It is not elections, it is a farce.
- The Abkhazian Foreign Ministry blamed Georgia for `sabotaging' the
presidential elections stating that `Georgia's endeavors to hinder the
arrival of European observers in the country is motivated by its
apprehensions that foreign observers will be able to give an
independent assessment to the elections and thus confirm legitimacy
and democracy of the presidential elections in Abkhazia'. What do you
think about it?
- Abkhazia is currently ruled by an absolutely illegitimate power
which is subordinate to the occupation authorities. And the urge of
the international community to adhere to the norms of international
law cannot be considered as sabotage. We have the right to protect our
sovereignty.
-Is it important to Tbilisi which of the three main candidates will be
selected as a President?
- Of course, no. We don't harbor illusions and we realize very well
that all the three candidates are controlled by Russian special
services. So, it's of no importance to us who will be elected or
appointed there. We will regard the so-called Abkhazian President as a
representative of illegitimate power reporting to the occupation
forces.
- However, the electoral programs of all the three Abkhazian
presidential candidates contain a point on the need for
re-establishing contacts with Georgia. How would you comment this?
- I don't know how they envisage it. The whole international community
including Armenia recognizes the territorial integrity of Georgia.
There are 2-3 odious leaders in the world who have recognized
Abkhazia's independence. They didn't manage to achieve more than that.
It will never happen if they mean interstate relations when speaking
of re-establishing the relations. If they mean the start of
negotiations between the parties to settle the conflict in accord with
the norms of international law, we have always been ready for it.
- The experts figured out another tendency: unlike 2008 elections when
all the candidates used `Together with Russia' slogan none of the
current potential candidates has such a slogan. What may it indicate
in your opinion?
- I think feeding people with slogans can't last for a long time.
Their leaders reiterated that they have achieved real independence and
now they are going to build up their sovereign state which will be a
subject of international law and so on and so forth. What situation
did they find themselves in? Today Abkhazia is Russia's major military
base. Naturally, tourism can't develop in such a situation, no
investments are made there. They didn't achieve any independence: the
criminal situation there is awful, the corruption reached
unprecedented levels and the unemployment rate is very high. And these
authorities cannot do anything for their people as they are completely
dependant on the occupation powers.
- You outlined the situation in Abkhazia. Do you think the situation
in Southern Ossetia is similar to the Abkhazian situation or does
Georgia distinguish between these 2 territorial formations?
- Indeed, there are differences but on the whole everything is the
same. The situation in Southern Ossetia is worse than in Abkhazia.
Very few people have stayed there: everybody strives to leave the
Tskhinvali region: the economy is undermined, the criminal is worse
than in Abkhazia and military bases are being built as well. There are
and will be no prospects for development there. I may sound
tendentious regarding these issues, but even in case a superficial
expert analysis is conducted and the economic development, the
achievements in combating corruption and attracting investments on
these territories and on the rest of Georgia's territory are compared,
the result will be obvious. Russia is not going to make investments
into the development of these regions. The only sphere where Moscow
will invest funds is the military infrastructure. And many people
begin to figure it out.
- There are opinions in media that the votes of the 50 000-member
Armenian community as the votes of Abkhazians will probably be
distributed among the three candidates in equal proportion and the
other communities are not so big and their votes won't be crucial. In
this regard, I want to ask the following: does official Tbilisi have a
definite stance towards the Armenian population in Abkhazia?
- We won't divide our citizens and we regard these people as our
citizens by ethnicity. Approximately the same number of Georgian
population inhabits in Gali district. These people found themselves in
such conditions that they have no opportunities to pariticipate in the
processess going on there. Unfortunately, Georgia can't influence the
processes unfolding in these regions. Our citizens of Armenian descent
have to vote at these elections, otherwise, they may undergo ethnic
cleansing.
- I would like to know how Tbilisi envisages the future of
Georgian-Russian relations in the current phase? Russian President
Dmitri Medvedev stated in his recent interview that only new the
Georgian Pressident will have an opportunity to establish normal
productive relations with Russia and the current leader Mikhail
Saakashvlini is a person with whom he can't shake hands. What does
Tbilisi think on this matter?
- We are a sovereign country. If another country's leader puts forward
conditions stating he will have contacts with you only after you
country accepts the power beneficial for him, you'd better not contact
with them at all. Our President Mikhail Saakashvili said that though
Abzkhazia and Southern Ossetia are occupied Georgia will never try to
deoccupy them by force though it has all the rights to do it in accord
with international legal norms. Moreover, Georgia is ready to sit at
negotiation tabel with the Russian side without any preconditions. We
don't say: ''First of all, take the troops out of the occupied
territories and then we will come and start a dialogue with you''. So,
it is obvious that our side adheres to all the international
''proprieties''. As for what Russia says and puts forward some
conditions - it is a common talk of an occupier and we are not
surprised by it.
- How actual is the range of Abkhazian and Southern Ossetian problems
in the light of Armenian-Georgian relations? Do you concede a
theoretical possibility that under certain circumstances Armenia may
recognize the independence of Armenia and Southern Ossetia?
- No, we don't concede it. It's impossible as throughout many years,
in the hardest moments for us, Armenia never undertook any actions
against Georgia which could have a negative impact on us. Armenia is
ruled by serious pragmatic and farsighted politicians who think about
not only the present moment but the country's future. In my opinion,
that's why it is not serious to believe that official Yerevan may ever
recognize the independence of Abkhazia and Southern Ossetia.
- Most people think that despite the statements on significant
strengthening of the bilateral relations made by Yerevan and Tbilisi,
Georgia still treats Armenia with distrust due to its close military
and political relations with Russia which is accused of occupying its
territories by Georgia. Moreover, the two neighboring countries
envision and build their security system in their own way: Armenia
associates it more with CSTO whereas Georgia - with European-Atlantic
structures. Do you think there is a ground for these assumptions?
- I think we should get used to it. We remained in the Soviet Union in
our minds and we think that if we are in different military blocs we
can't befriend each other. Of course, we can. One country simply chose
one direction for its security development and the other - a different
one. This doesn't mean that we must be enemies. It may be a problem to
those countries and politicians who have preserved the imperial
mindset.
I want to state that today Armenia and Georgia have established
excellent political and economic relations they have never had. We are
ready to move ahead, keep the dynamics in deepening and developing
these relations. As for the security coordinates, Armenia has a
sovereign right to choose its path and we have the right to choose
ours and it will never hinder our relations.
Mediamax's Aram Araratyan talked to Tengiz Sharmanashvili.
Aug 26 2011
Georgian Ambassador: `It's not serious to think that Yerevan may ever
recognize the independence of Abkhazia and Southern Ossetia'
Thursday 25 August 2011 23:26
Exclusive interview of Ambassador of Georgia to Armenia Tengiz
Sharmanashvili to Mediamax
- Early presidential elections are held in Abkhazia today. What is the
official Tbilisi's stance in this respect?
- These are illegitimate elections. They are illegitimate in several
aspects. First of all, Abkhazia is not a subject of international law
to conduct elections as in a sovereign state. Secondly, there were
ethnic cleansings there and over 250 000 Georgians as well as
Armenians, Estonians and many Abkhazians themselves had to leave
Abkhazia. Besides, this illegitimate action takes place on the
territories which have been illegally occupied by foreign armed forces
- namely by Russia. We can't consider elections what is currently
going on in Abkhazia. It is not elections, it is a farce.
- The Abkhazian Foreign Ministry blamed Georgia for `sabotaging' the
presidential elections stating that `Georgia's endeavors to hinder the
arrival of European observers in the country is motivated by its
apprehensions that foreign observers will be able to give an
independent assessment to the elections and thus confirm legitimacy
and democracy of the presidential elections in Abkhazia'. What do you
think about it?
- Abkhazia is currently ruled by an absolutely illegitimate power
which is subordinate to the occupation authorities. And the urge of
the international community to adhere to the norms of international
law cannot be considered as sabotage. We have the right to protect our
sovereignty.
-Is it important to Tbilisi which of the three main candidates will be
selected as a President?
- Of course, no. We don't harbor illusions and we realize very well
that all the three candidates are controlled by Russian special
services. So, it's of no importance to us who will be elected or
appointed there. We will regard the so-called Abkhazian President as a
representative of illegitimate power reporting to the occupation
forces.
- However, the electoral programs of all the three Abkhazian
presidential candidates contain a point on the need for
re-establishing contacts with Georgia. How would you comment this?
- I don't know how they envisage it. The whole international community
including Armenia recognizes the territorial integrity of Georgia.
There are 2-3 odious leaders in the world who have recognized
Abkhazia's independence. They didn't manage to achieve more than that.
It will never happen if they mean interstate relations when speaking
of re-establishing the relations. If they mean the start of
negotiations between the parties to settle the conflict in accord with
the norms of international law, we have always been ready for it.
- The experts figured out another tendency: unlike 2008 elections when
all the candidates used `Together with Russia' slogan none of the
current potential candidates has such a slogan. What may it indicate
in your opinion?
- I think feeding people with slogans can't last for a long time.
Their leaders reiterated that they have achieved real independence and
now they are going to build up their sovereign state which will be a
subject of international law and so on and so forth. What situation
did they find themselves in? Today Abkhazia is Russia's major military
base. Naturally, tourism can't develop in such a situation, no
investments are made there. They didn't achieve any independence: the
criminal situation there is awful, the corruption reached
unprecedented levels and the unemployment rate is very high. And these
authorities cannot do anything for their people as they are completely
dependant on the occupation powers.
- You outlined the situation in Abkhazia. Do you think the situation
in Southern Ossetia is similar to the Abkhazian situation or does
Georgia distinguish between these 2 territorial formations?
- Indeed, there are differences but on the whole everything is the
same. The situation in Southern Ossetia is worse than in Abkhazia.
Very few people have stayed there: everybody strives to leave the
Tskhinvali region: the economy is undermined, the criminal is worse
than in Abkhazia and military bases are being built as well. There are
and will be no prospects for development there. I may sound
tendentious regarding these issues, but even in case a superficial
expert analysis is conducted and the economic development, the
achievements in combating corruption and attracting investments on
these territories and on the rest of Georgia's territory are compared,
the result will be obvious. Russia is not going to make investments
into the development of these regions. The only sphere where Moscow
will invest funds is the military infrastructure. And many people
begin to figure it out.
- There are opinions in media that the votes of the 50 000-member
Armenian community as the votes of Abkhazians will probably be
distributed among the three candidates in equal proportion and the
other communities are not so big and their votes won't be crucial. In
this regard, I want to ask the following: does official Tbilisi have a
definite stance towards the Armenian population in Abkhazia?
- We won't divide our citizens and we regard these people as our
citizens by ethnicity. Approximately the same number of Georgian
population inhabits in Gali district. These people found themselves in
such conditions that they have no opportunities to pariticipate in the
processess going on there. Unfortunately, Georgia can't influence the
processes unfolding in these regions. Our citizens of Armenian descent
have to vote at these elections, otherwise, they may undergo ethnic
cleansing.
- I would like to know how Tbilisi envisages the future of
Georgian-Russian relations in the current phase? Russian President
Dmitri Medvedev stated in his recent interview that only new the
Georgian Pressident will have an opportunity to establish normal
productive relations with Russia and the current leader Mikhail
Saakashvlini is a person with whom he can't shake hands. What does
Tbilisi think on this matter?
- We are a sovereign country. If another country's leader puts forward
conditions stating he will have contacts with you only after you
country accepts the power beneficial for him, you'd better not contact
with them at all. Our President Mikhail Saakashvili said that though
Abzkhazia and Southern Ossetia are occupied Georgia will never try to
deoccupy them by force though it has all the rights to do it in accord
with international legal norms. Moreover, Georgia is ready to sit at
negotiation tabel with the Russian side without any preconditions. We
don't say: ''First of all, take the troops out of the occupied
territories and then we will come and start a dialogue with you''. So,
it is obvious that our side adheres to all the international
''proprieties''. As for what Russia says and puts forward some
conditions - it is a common talk of an occupier and we are not
surprised by it.
- How actual is the range of Abkhazian and Southern Ossetian problems
in the light of Armenian-Georgian relations? Do you concede a
theoretical possibility that under certain circumstances Armenia may
recognize the independence of Armenia and Southern Ossetia?
- No, we don't concede it. It's impossible as throughout many years,
in the hardest moments for us, Armenia never undertook any actions
against Georgia which could have a negative impact on us. Armenia is
ruled by serious pragmatic and farsighted politicians who think about
not only the present moment but the country's future. In my opinion,
that's why it is not serious to believe that official Yerevan may ever
recognize the independence of Abkhazia and Southern Ossetia.
- Most people think that despite the statements on significant
strengthening of the bilateral relations made by Yerevan and Tbilisi,
Georgia still treats Armenia with distrust due to its close military
and political relations with Russia which is accused of occupying its
territories by Georgia. Moreover, the two neighboring countries
envision and build their security system in their own way: Armenia
associates it more with CSTO whereas Georgia - with European-Atlantic
structures. Do you think there is a ground for these assumptions?
- I think we should get used to it. We remained in the Soviet Union in
our minds and we think that if we are in different military blocs we
can't befriend each other. Of course, we can. One country simply chose
one direction for its security development and the other - a different
one. This doesn't mean that we must be enemies. It may be a problem to
those countries and politicians who have preserved the imperial
mindset.
I want to state that today Armenia and Georgia have established
excellent political and economic relations they have never had. We are
ready to move ahead, keep the dynamics in deepening and developing
these relations. As for the security coordinates, Armenia has a
sovereign right to choose its path and we have the right to choose
ours and it will never hinder our relations.
Mediamax's Aram Araratyan talked to Tengiz Sharmanashvili.