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WRITER AYTAV SAYS 'ALI SHOULD THROW THE BALL TO HAGOP' BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE
Today's Zaman
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-243278-writer-aytav-says-ali-should-throw-the-ball-to-hagop-before-its-too-late.html
May 9 2011
Turkey
A writer who has questioned how being "the other" is and what it means
in Turkey in his recent book has told Today's Zaman for Monday Talk
that the society has been victimized by the republican state ideology
that idealized a "Muslim Hanefi secular Turk," but that this doesn't
have to be that way forever.
"Hrant Dink had formulated that very well: Ali should throw the
ball to Hagop. It's time; indeed, the time is past. We should say
enough is enough. Ali has been playing ball only with other Ali's;
but when he starts to play with Hagop, there will be a better game
because there will be a better team. We will solve the problem when
we realize this," said Erkam Tufan Aytav, who wrote the book "Being
Other in Turkey" ("Turkiye'de Oteki Olmak") based on his interviews
with eight people who are members of Turkey's different communities
that have been singled out as "others" for a long time.
"But education alone is not enough. Media has an important role in
hate speech, which should be considered a crime against humanity,
should be eliminated in the media and from publications that lean
toward the left or the right because they all use it," he added.
In Aytav's categories of "others" are Turkey's Jews, Greeks,
women who wear headscarves, Armenians, Syriacs, Kurds, Alevis and
Roma. His book consists of interviews with writer Mario Levi, IÅ~_ık
University engineering faculty dean Yorgo Stefanopulos, Taraf daily
columnist Hilal Kaplan, Ä°stanbul Bilgi University sociology professor
Arus Yumul, Syriac Catholic Community board of directors head Zeki
Basatemir, activist and writer Altan Tan, historian and writer Reha
Camuroglu and İstanbul Roma Association head Aydın Elbasan.
Answering our questions, Aytav informs us about being "the other"
as he considers himself one of the "others" even though he says he
once belonged to a "happy minority."
Omer Laciner wrote in the foreword that as far as he knows, this is
the first book that directly addresses the Turkish Muslim majority. Is
that right?
This is unfortunately right as far as I can see, even though I
haven't made a through research of the whole literature created for
that population.
Has addressing that community been your goal?
Yes. I've especially chosen a publishing house that is geared toward
a population with Islamic sensitivities. Indeed there is only a small
and "happy" minority in Turkey. The rest, probably about 98-99 percent
of the population, even though they are the majority in the numerical
sense, are all "others." Those "others" are pushed out by the system;
however, they themselves see each other as "others" when they are
categorized, let's say, as Alevis, Kurds, Armenians, Roma, etc.
Interestingly, they see and label each other through the eyes of the
system. This viewpoint creates problems in society.
What kind of problems?
As much as Kemalists and strict secularists tend to create unified
types -- Muslim Hanefi Turks - and see the rest as "others," Muslim
Hanefi Turks tend to view people who are different from them as
"others," whether those "others" are Armenians, Alevis, Kurds or Roma.
However, I am hopeful that people who have Islamic sensitivities -
unfortunately, not the Kemalists or strict secularists -- might be a
locomotive for a democratic and pluralist Turkey because they are the
ones who demand more democracy as they've become more integrated with
the world. Still, there is an issue: how they view the "other." They
have to face up to the fact that they also view people who are
different from the majority as the "other." They have to change
that view and empathize. Even though I target a wide majority of
the population to read and learn from the book, I hope conservative
Muslim Turks will read the book carefully in order to speed up the
democratic development of Turkey.
'Younger Muslim Turks more democratic' Were you worried that
conservative Muslims would not react very positively to the ideas in
your book?
I was worried in the beginning, but I've been proven wrong. I've
realized that I've not known conservative Muslim Turks that well. In
particular, the younger generation is more open and democratic in
that regard; they are more pro-freedom. I've not received any negative
reactions from people who have Islamic sensitivities; on the contrary,
I've been praised. I think this is because the book is concerned with
human feelings, our conscience. When people listen to how "others"
have been made "others," how much they suffered, they feel empathy.
For example?
Think about two young people, one Muslim and one Armenian or Greek -
both are Turkish citizens who study in the same schools throughout
their basic education years. There comes a time for them to make
choices for what they are going to do in the future, what they are
going to choose as professions. The Armenian or the Greek youth knows
that he or she can't choose certain professions, like a military
career, a career in the police force, a career in public service,
an occupation like being a governor. Don't we feel bad for that young
person because she or he can't pursue her or his dreams? Their dreams
are hindered. This is a crime against humanity.
What do you think about the establishment of the republic with a
certain ideology?
The establishment of the republic occurred following major wars and
tragedies. I am from Ä°zmir, and what has been etched in my memory
since my childhood is that some Greeks from Ä°zmir had welcomed the
Greeks who were going to occupy the city. This tragedy has been passed
down through the generations in each year's Sept. 9 celebrations
[liberation of Ä°zmir from Greek occupation] in Ä°zmir. At the same
time, with the establishment of the republic, Anatolia has been
Islamized as it had never been before. Non-Muslims have been mostly
expelled. However, it has been wrong to present the case even today
as if all non-Muslims in Turkey have been traitors. The official
republican ideology with their hands in the media and education has
been doing this; the hands of the media have been especially dirty
in this regard. We don't need to do that anymore. I'd like to point
out that the United States government started treating all Muslims
as "terrorists" following Sept. 11 when the number of deaths had
no comparison to the number of deaths in the fall of the Ottoman
Empire and the War of Independence. Even though we should not approve
such discriminatory practices following such tragedies, we have to
understand the circumstances that have created the paranoia.
'Either be assimilated or leave' You indicate in your book that the
policies of the republic have created some "crypto" people, be they
Armenians or Greeks.
Yes. This is the result of the dictated policies: Either be assimilated
or leave, just like what former President Suleyman Demirel had said
when he told women who wear headscarves to go to Saudi Arabia. This is
the language of the system: Love it or leave it. If you don't want to
leave or if you cannot leave, what you will have to do is to become
isolated, to hide, to change your name and to be silent about your
"other" identity. You never say you are Alevi, Armenian or Kurd or
that you belong to a sect. So all of Turkey becomes a masked ball.
In recent years, there have been more and more people who have been
revealing their "other" identities.
Definitely. In some intelligence documents, there are worrisome
statements about the number of people who are becoming Christians.
Indeed, these are people who have been Christians, but they had not
revealed their identities until recently. Armenian Patriarch Mesrob
Mutafyan had told me that as society has been becoming more democratic,
those people have been demanding that they be baptized.
It seems like the people who carry the "other" identity in a way have
common concerns in Turkey. They are usually told by their parents to
keep that identity to themselves.
They are trying to protect their children. Crypto Armenians or Alevis
exist. This is normal in such a society that has made discrimination
a state policy for a long time.
You get into the relations of Alevis with the republican system. You
think the Stockholm Syndrome explanation falls too short to explain it.
It is not fair to Alevis to explain their relations with the system
only in the framework of the Stockholm Syndrome. First of all, there
is a deep distrust both by Alevis toward Sunni Muslims and by Sunni
Muslims toward Alevis. And Alevis are afraid of new Kerbelas. They
prefer secular Kemalists to pious Sunni Muslims. It is correct that
the fire at the Madımak Hotel occurred as a result of a provocation,
but it is not enough of an explanation. Sunni Muslims should questions
themselves more: Why are they prone to provocation?
All 'others' have mutual problems The issue of distrust is a problem
that we see in people's, in all others' relations with the rest of
the society, right?
That's right, and the republican system has played a major role to
deepen that distrust. If all "others" come together and talk about
their problems, they will see that their problems are usually mutual
and related to freedom of expression and belief and basic human rights;
they all stem from the system of the state.
A lot of people you interviewed indicated that education is the best
remedy to bring down walls before people and to eliminate prejudices.
Hrant Dink had formulated that very well: Ali should throw the ball to
Hagop. It's time; indeed, the time is past, we should say enough is
enough. Ali has been playing ball only with other Ali's; but when he
starts to play with Hagop, there will be a better game because there
will be a better team. We will solve the problem when we realize this.
But education alone is not enough. The media has an important role
in hate speech; it should be considered a crime against humanity,
should be eliminated from the media, from publications that lean
toward the left or the right because they all use it.
And the school textbooks...
If we had learned Alevism as well as Islam as Sunni Muslims learned
their own beliefs, we would probably have been different people. There
have been hundreds of thousands of Hagops in Anatolia, there are still
some. There are Yorgos. They are not "foreigners," they are from here.
Your interviewees also indicate that there is more openness in the
society since the 1990s.
Starting with the Ozal [former prime minister and President Turgut
Ozal] years, society has been breaking out of its shell. In more
recent years, with the AK Party [ruling Justice and Development Party]
government, we have seen some improvements with several initiatives,
be it the Alevi initiative or the Kurdish initiative, even though these
are not enough. Indeed, a political party that bases its policies
on the concept of equal citizenship rights cannot yet be a winner
in a society that still sees "others" almost as equal to "enemies
within." No political party would be able to derive courage from that
kind of a society. Unfortunately, a liberal party that would point
out the concept of equal citizenship would receive very few votes.
In your foreword in the book, you say that Turkey's "others" alternate
between feelings of having hope and hopelessness.
There is a big hope because there is some change signaling that the
status quo is not going to be permanent. Turkey's accession process
to the European Union also backs those hopes. In addition, Fethullah
Gulen's contacts with Turkey's "others" influenced how the majority of
people in the society views "others;" think about Gulen's meetings with
Armenian and Greek patriarchs in Turkey, in addition to his meetings
with the Jewish religious leader. Such relations led to a new thinking
in society. Other opinion leaders should show the same courage. Also
"others" should open themselves up and interrelate with the rest of
the society even though there is a "fear factor." A woman who wears
a headscarf should question the official nationalist presentation
of the Kurdish issue as much as an Armenian should struggle for the
rights of women who wear headscarves.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Erkam Tufan Aytav's story: From 'happy minority' to 'the other' What
is the story of Erkam Tufan Aytav? You started out as someone from
the "happy minority" but have since become included in the group of
"others." How come?
I am from a Sunni Turk family who identifies with a secular
lifestyle. I was never in conflict with the republican system from
the beginning up to my university years. I grew up with the "ugly"
images of "Islamist" in my mind created by the Gırgır humor weekly. I
didn't known what an Alevi was until my best friend told me years after
we had first met in middle school. Kurdish, same story, why do they
fight? What do they want? We live together, happily and merrily. I've
known Armenians because they were our neighbors in Ä°stanbul, but
they moved out of the country. Even one of my best friends from
the Armenians never told me why they were leaving. I've seen the
"skittishness of a dove" that Hrant Dink had mentioned in those
Armenian families. I always remember the jokes of Turkish children for
our Armenian friends; they'd say "Ataturk should have sent you away,
too" or "Armenian offspring." During my university years, I was in
contact with people with Islamic sensitivities; I've met Fethullah
Gulen, whose ideas have changed a lot in my life. Until that time,
I was living as a "happy minority." Then I became the "other." This
was my luck.
You see being "the other" as an opportunity.
It has added a lot to my life. Otherwise, I'd probably never have had
a chance to establish the kinds of dialogues that I am able to do now.
I am still learning. For example, Roma people; I'd never imagined that
they wouldn't be accepted to public office or as civil servants. How
would they be singled out? Not all dark-colored people are Roma. I've
learned that the state knows from the records of where they live.
Yorgo Stefanopulos said the same thing -- they were complaining that
the state doesn't know them, but indeed the state knows them all
too well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Erkam Tufan Aytav
Born in Ä°zmir and completed his education in Ä°stanbul, Aytav
describes himself as one of the "others" since he is a follower of
Fethullah Gulen's ideas. After being involved in freelance journalism
in the past, he served in 1998-2008 as the general secretary of the
Diyalog Avrasya Platform. He also was the chief editor of the Da
magazine. He is currently the general secretary of the Journalists
and Writers Association Medialog Platform. He produces radio programs
on Burc FM and writes column at haber7.com. He is the writer of
the recent book "Being Other in Turkey" ("Turkiye'de Oteki Olmak")
published by Mavi Ufuklar.
From: A. Papazian
Today's Zaman
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-243278-writer-aytav-says-ali-should-throw-the-ball-to-hagop-before-its-too-late.html
May 9 2011
Turkey
A writer who has questioned how being "the other" is and what it means
in Turkey in his recent book has told Today's Zaman for Monday Talk
that the society has been victimized by the republican state ideology
that idealized a "Muslim Hanefi secular Turk," but that this doesn't
have to be that way forever.
"Hrant Dink had formulated that very well: Ali should throw the
ball to Hagop. It's time; indeed, the time is past. We should say
enough is enough. Ali has been playing ball only with other Ali's;
but when he starts to play with Hagop, there will be a better game
because there will be a better team. We will solve the problem when
we realize this," said Erkam Tufan Aytav, who wrote the book "Being
Other in Turkey" ("Turkiye'de Oteki Olmak") based on his interviews
with eight people who are members of Turkey's different communities
that have been singled out as "others" for a long time.
"But education alone is not enough. Media has an important role in
hate speech, which should be considered a crime against humanity,
should be eliminated in the media and from publications that lean
toward the left or the right because they all use it," he added.
In Aytav's categories of "others" are Turkey's Jews, Greeks,
women who wear headscarves, Armenians, Syriacs, Kurds, Alevis and
Roma. His book consists of interviews with writer Mario Levi, IÅ~_ık
University engineering faculty dean Yorgo Stefanopulos, Taraf daily
columnist Hilal Kaplan, Ä°stanbul Bilgi University sociology professor
Arus Yumul, Syriac Catholic Community board of directors head Zeki
Basatemir, activist and writer Altan Tan, historian and writer Reha
Camuroglu and İstanbul Roma Association head Aydın Elbasan.
Answering our questions, Aytav informs us about being "the other"
as he considers himself one of the "others" even though he says he
once belonged to a "happy minority."
Omer Laciner wrote in the foreword that as far as he knows, this is
the first book that directly addresses the Turkish Muslim majority. Is
that right?
This is unfortunately right as far as I can see, even though I
haven't made a through research of the whole literature created for
that population.
Has addressing that community been your goal?
Yes. I've especially chosen a publishing house that is geared toward
a population with Islamic sensitivities. Indeed there is only a small
and "happy" minority in Turkey. The rest, probably about 98-99 percent
of the population, even though they are the majority in the numerical
sense, are all "others." Those "others" are pushed out by the system;
however, they themselves see each other as "others" when they are
categorized, let's say, as Alevis, Kurds, Armenians, Roma, etc.
Interestingly, they see and label each other through the eyes of the
system. This viewpoint creates problems in society.
What kind of problems?
As much as Kemalists and strict secularists tend to create unified
types -- Muslim Hanefi Turks - and see the rest as "others," Muslim
Hanefi Turks tend to view people who are different from them as
"others," whether those "others" are Armenians, Alevis, Kurds or Roma.
However, I am hopeful that people who have Islamic sensitivities -
unfortunately, not the Kemalists or strict secularists -- might be a
locomotive for a democratic and pluralist Turkey because they are the
ones who demand more democracy as they've become more integrated with
the world. Still, there is an issue: how they view the "other." They
have to face up to the fact that they also view people who are
different from the majority as the "other." They have to change
that view and empathize. Even though I target a wide majority of
the population to read and learn from the book, I hope conservative
Muslim Turks will read the book carefully in order to speed up the
democratic development of Turkey.
'Younger Muslim Turks more democratic' Were you worried that
conservative Muslims would not react very positively to the ideas in
your book?
I was worried in the beginning, but I've been proven wrong. I've
realized that I've not known conservative Muslim Turks that well. In
particular, the younger generation is more open and democratic in
that regard; they are more pro-freedom. I've not received any negative
reactions from people who have Islamic sensitivities; on the contrary,
I've been praised. I think this is because the book is concerned with
human feelings, our conscience. When people listen to how "others"
have been made "others," how much they suffered, they feel empathy.
For example?
Think about two young people, one Muslim and one Armenian or Greek -
both are Turkish citizens who study in the same schools throughout
their basic education years. There comes a time for them to make
choices for what they are going to do in the future, what they are
going to choose as professions. The Armenian or the Greek youth knows
that he or she can't choose certain professions, like a military
career, a career in the police force, a career in public service,
an occupation like being a governor. Don't we feel bad for that young
person because she or he can't pursue her or his dreams? Their dreams
are hindered. This is a crime against humanity.
What do you think about the establishment of the republic with a
certain ideology?
The establishment of the republic occurred following major wars and
tragedies. I am from Ä°zmir, and what has been etched in my memory
since my childhood is that some Greeks from Ä°zmir had welcomed the
Greeks who were going to occupy the city. This tragedy has been passed
down through the generations in each year's Sept. 9 celebrations
[liberation of Ä°zmir from Greek occupation] in Ä°zmir. At the same
time, with the establishment of the republic, Anatolia has been
Islamized as it had never been before. Non-Muslims have been mostly
expelled. However, it has been wrong to present the case even today
as if all non-Muslims in Turkey have been traitors. The official
republican ideology with their hands in the media and education has
been doing this; the hands of the media have been especially dirty
in this regard. We don't need to do that anymore. I'd like to point
out that the United States government started treating all Muslims
as "terrorists" following Sept. 11 when the number of deaths had
no comparison to the number of deaths in the fall of the Ottoman
Empire and the War of Independence. Even though we should not approve
such discriminatory practices following such tragedies, we have to
understand the circumstances that have created the paranoia.
'Either be assimilated or leave' You indicate in your book that the
policies of the republic have created some "crypto" people, be they
Armenians or Greeks.
Yes. This is the result of the dictated policies: Either be assimilated
or leave, just like what former President Suleyman Demirel had said
when he told women who wear headscarves to go to Saudi Arabia. This is
the language of the system: Love it or leave it. If you don't want to
leave or if you cannot leave, what you will have to do is to become
isolated, to hide, to change your name and to be silent about your
"other" identity. You never say you are Alevi, Armenian or Kurd or
that you belong to a sect. So all of Turkey becomes a masked ball.
In recent years, there have been more and more people who have been
revealing their "other" identities.
Definitely. In some intelligence documents, there are worrisome
statements about the number of people who are becoming Christians.
Indeed, these are people who have been Christians, but they had not
revealed their identities until recently. Armenian Patriarch Mesrob
Mutafyan had told me that as society has been becoming more democratic,
those people have been demanding that they be baptized.
It seems like the people who carry the "other" identity in a way have
common concerns in Turkey. They are usually told by their parents to
keep that identity to themselves.
They are trying to protect their children. Crypto Armenians or Alevis
exist. This is normal in such a society that has made discrimination
a state policy for a long time.
You get into the relations of Alevis with the republican system. You
think the Stockholm Syndrome explanation falls too short to explain it.
It is not fair to Alevis to explain their relations with the system
only in the framework of the Stockholm Syndrome. First of all, there
is a deep distrust both by Alevis toward Sunni Muslims and by Sunni
Muslims toward Alevis. And Alevis are afraid of new Kerbelas. They
prefer secular Kemalists to pious Sunni Muslims. It is correct that
the fire at the Madımak Hotel occurred as a result of a provocation,
but it is not enough of an explanation. Sunni Muslims should questions
themselves more: Why are they prone to provocation?
All 'others' have mutual problems The issue of distrust is a problem
that we see in people's, in all others' relations with the rest of
the society, right?
That's right, and the republican system has played a major role to
deepen that distrust. If all "others" come together and talk about
their problems, they will see that their problems are usually mutual
and related to freedom of expression and belief and basic human rights;
they all stem from the system of the state.
A lot of people you interviewed indicated that education is the best
remedy to bring down walls before people and to eliminate prejudices.
Hrant Dink had formulated that very well: Ali should throw the ball to
Hagop. It's time; indeed, the time is past, we should say enough is
enough. Ali has been playing ball only with other Ali's; but when he
starts to play with Hagop, there will be a better game because there
will be a better team. We will solve the problem when we realize this.
But education alone is not enough. The media has an important role
in hate speech; it should be considered a crime against humanity,
should be eliminated from the media, from publications that lean
toward the left or the right because they all use it.
And the school textbooks...
If we had learned Alevism as well as Islam as Sunni Muslims learned
their own beliefs, we would probably have been different people. There
have been hundreds of thousands of Hagops in Anatolia, there are still
some. There are Yorgos. They are not "foreigners," they are from here.
Your interviewees also indicate that there is more openness in the
society since the 1990s.
Starting with the Ozal [former prime minister and President Turgut
Ozal] years, society has been breaking out of its shell. In more
recent years, with the AK Party [ruling Justice and Development Party]
government, we have seen some improvements with several initiatives,
be it the Alevi initiative or the Kurdish initiative, even though these
are not enough. Indeed, a political party that bases its policies
on the concept of equal citizenship rights cannot yet be a winner
in a society that still sees "others" almost as equal to "enemies
within." No political party would be able to derive courage from that
kind of a society. Unfortunately, a liberal party that would point
out the concept of equal citizenship would receive very few votes.
In your foreword in the book, you say that Turkey's "others" alternate
between feelings of having hope and hopelessness.
There is a big hope because there is some change signaling that the
status quo is not going to be permanent. Turkey's accession process
to the European Union also backs those hopes. In addition, Fethullah
Gulen's contacts with Turkey's "others" influenced how the majority of
people in the society views "others;" think about Gulen's meetings with
Armenian and Greek patriarchs in Turkey, in addition to his meetings
with the Jewish religious leader. Such relations led to a new thinking
in society. Other opinion leaders should show the same courage. Also
"others" should open themselves up and interrelate with the rest of
the society even though there is a "fear factor." A woman who wears
a headscarf should question the official nationalist presentation
of the Kurdish issue as much as an Armenian should struggle for the
rights of women who wear headscarves.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Erkam Tufan Aytav's story: From 'happy minority' to 'the other' What
is the story of Erkam Tufan Aytav? You started out as someone from
the "happy minority" but have since become included in the group of
"others." How come?
I am from a Sunni Turk family who identifies with a secular
lifestyle. I was never in conflict with the republican system from
the beginning up to my university years. I grew up with the "ugly"
images of "Islamist" in my mind created by the Gırgır humor weekly. I
didn't known what an Alevi was until my best friend told me years after
we had first met in middle school. Kurdish, same story, why do they
fight? What do they want? We live together, happily and merrily. I've
known Armenians because they were our neighbors in Ä°stanbul, but
they moved out of the country. Even one of my best friends from
the Armenians never told me why they were leaving. I've seen the
"skittishness of a dove" that Hrant Dink had mentioned in those
Armenian families. I always remember the jokes of Turkish children for
our Armenian friends; they'd say "Ataturk should have sent you away,
too" or "Armenian offspring." During my university years, I was in
contact with people with Islamic sensitivities; I've met Fethullah
Gulen, whose ideas have changed a lot in my life. Until that time,
I was living as a "happy minority." Then I became the "other." This
was my luck.
You see being "the other" as an opportunity.
It has added a lot to my life. Otherwise, I'd probably never have had
a chance to establish the kinds of dialogues that I am able to do now.
I am still learning. For example, Roma people; I'd never imagined that
they wouldn't be accepted to public office or as civil servants. How
would they be singled out? Not all dark-colored people are Roma. I've
learned that the state knows from the records of where they live.
Yorgo Stefanopulos said the same thing -- they were complaining that
the state doesn't know them, but indeed the state knows them all
too well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Erkam Tufan Aytav
Born in Ä°zmir and completed his education in Ä°stanbul, Aytav
describes himself as one of the "others" since he is a follower of
Fethullah Gulen's ideas. After being involved in freelance journalism
in the past, he served in 1998-2008 as the general secretary of the
Diyalog Avrasya Platform. He also was the chief editor of the Da
magazine. He is currently the general secretary of the Journalists
and Writers Association Medialog Platform. He produces radio programs
on Burc FM and writes column at haber7.com. He is the writer of
the recent book "Being Other in Turkey" ("Turkiye'de Oteki Olmak")
published by Mavi Ufuklar.
From: A. Papazian