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National Public Radio (NPR)
SHOW: Tell Me More 11:00 AM EST
December 29, 2011 Thursday
Turkey Prospers Amid Neighboring Nations' Woes
GUESTS: Recep Tayyip Erdogan , John Peet, Rami Khouri, Ahmet Davutoglu
MICHEL MARTIN: I'm Michel Martin and this is TELL ME MORE from NPR
News. Coming up, it's time for Kwanzaa, the week long celebration of
the African Diaspora. The holiday is supposed to emphasize family and
community and all things homemade, so of course, we're going to talk
about food you might want to serve for your Kwanzaa celebration or
just because.
But first, as 2011 winds down, we're taking some time to offer a twist
on the traditional end of year roundup here at TELL ME MORE and, in
fact, across NPR all week, we're highlighting the people, movements
and ideas that had a good year.
Today, we turn to the country of Turkey. It was once called the sick
man of Europe, but all that has changed in the last decade. Just this
year, its neighbors to the west have gone through an economic crisis
that still threatens to topple the eurozone.
Turkey's economy has been booming with an estimated seven percent
growth. Its neighbors to the east and south have gone through
widespread demonstrations and political turmoil, but Turkey has
championed the cause of the Arab Spring and is being increasingly
recognized as a regional player.
Let's listen to this speech by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip
Erdogan addressed to the Syrian president. First, you'll hear his
voice and then you'll hear the voice of the translator. Here it is.
Recep Tayyip Erdogan : (Through Translator) If you believe in
yourself, if you are confident as a leader, you would call for
elections. If these ballot boxes take you to power, then you will come
to power and rule that country. You can remain in power with tanks and
cannons only up to a certain point. The day will come when you will
leave.
MICHEL MARTIN: We wanted to talk more about why this has been a good
year for Turkey, so we have called upon Rami Khouri. He is the
editor-at-large of The Daily Star in Beirut, Lebanon. We reached him
there. Also with us is John Peet, the Europe editor at The Economist
magazine and we reached him in Wilshire, England.
Thank you both so much for joining us. Happy holidays to you both.
JOHN PEET: Same to you.
RAMI KHOURI: Thank you.
MICHEL MARTIN: So Mr. Peet, I'm going to start with you because the
economy is such a concern in the U.S. and Europe at this time. So I'd
like to ask you why Turkey's economy has had such a good year.
JOHN PEET: Well, it's had a series of good years, but this year, 2011,
has been probably better than most of the previous ones. The Turkey
economy was in terrible state up to about 10 years ago. It went
through repeated high inflation, (unintelligible) crises, trouble with
the currency and they did a lot of economic reform at the time.
They sorted out their banks 10 years ago and the last 10 years have
been very good years, booming times, very strong exports to Europe and
increasingly to the region and through Asia and they've done well
again this year, so they're much better off than the rest of Europe.
They look, really, like one of the BRIC countries.
MICHEL MARTIN: And has this rising tide lifted more boats than just
the few? I mean, has it, in fact, improved the living standard of
citizens in a way that they can feel?
JOHN PEET: Very strongly. I mean, the traditional visitor to Turkey
will go to Istanbul and life in Istanbul has been good for quite a
long time, but what I think has changed since I first went to Turkey
10 years ago has been the living standards right across the main
Anatolian land mass.
You go in to towns like Gaziantep or Kayseri in the middle of Anatolia
and living standards have increased very substantially in the last 10
years. People, you know - there are quite a lot of much richer people
and the average is much higher than it was. So it's been a pretty good
time for most Turks.
MICHEL MARTIN: And Rami Khouri, let's bring you into the conversation.
Here's Turkey's foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, speaking to Al
Jazeera English about their policy toward the Arab Spring protests
this summer.
AHMET DAVUTOGLU: We established two principles. One is, now, it is
time for change in our region. There is a need of a new politics in
our region. Second, the method of this change should be peaceful
transformation.
MICHEL MARTIN: Now, of course, Rami, many, you know, diplomats from
many countries have been saying this, but they are not necessarily
believed. Tell us a little bit about what Turkey's role has been in
the course of this tumultuous period. And are they seen as an
important player and to what end?
RAMI KHOURI: Well, Turkey has developed much greater influence in the
region and much closer - many closer, tighter connections in terms of
the business interests, some security interests, trade, tourism, open
borders, now they have open travel with many Arab countries. And this
has generated a sense that Turkey is not only a close partner, but
perhaps an influential big brother in some respects for some people in
the region and people look at Turkey in the Arab world, for the most
part, with a lot of admiration.
And almost everybody in the Arab world sees something in Turkey they
like. They like the business development, the economic boom, the
democratic transition, the rule of law. They like the Islamist
cultural influence, the fact that Islamist groups came into power.
Everybody sees something in Turkey that they like and the secular
nature of the system and, therefore, this has given Turkey some real
significant soft power influence in the region and it has tried to
learn over the last two or three years how to use that power, how to
use that influence in a constructive way, and as the foreign minister
pointed out, now they're pretty much focused on trying to promote
democratic peaceful transitions, which is what they experienced in
their own country, so this is something quite positive and
significant.
How much Turkey can actually be involved inside Arab countries to
promote this remains to be seen and this is their big challenge now,
to translate a broad principle into actual foreign policy and actions.
MICHEL MARTIN: And as part of NPR's year end series, we're looking at
how 2011 was a good year for the country of Turkey. We're speaking
with Rami Khouri of The Daily Star in Beirut and also John Peet of The
Economist.
Rami Khouri, pick up on that theme a bit, if you would. We're saying
that Turkey is more influential in the region. How does it see itself?
You're seeing its influence to what end, to help kind of ease the
transition to fuller participation in each of these countries and how?
RAMI KHOURI: Well, one of the things that Turkey is doing is that,
having become powerful, democratic, stable, self-confident, it's now
learning how to use that potential power and influence that it has
around the region.
At the beginning of the Arab Spring, the Turks were a little bit
caught on the back foot. In mid-year, they weren't quite sure in the
beginning what to do. They have huge business interests there. Then
they finally came down on the side of the people revolting for their
freedom.
And Syria, the same thing. They tried to intervene and then, finally,
they felt they were not treated honestly by the Syrian government and
they came out on the side of a democratic transition. So they're
trying. They're learning how to play the role of a regional power,
which is what they are.
They are doing this primarily for their own self-interests, as any
powerful country does. For them to have a democratic, stable,
prosperous and democratic Arab neighborhood is incredibly positive
because it drives their economy and then it helps in many other
strategic interests that they have.
MICHEL MARTIN: You know what's interesting is that Turkey, for years,
at least from a marketing perspective and also diplomatically, in some
ways, has positioned itself as kind of the bridge and the buffer
between Europe and the Middle East. But for years, Turkey's gone after
membership to the European Union with no results.
So John Peet, are Turks less interested now in joining the EU, you
know, as the European economies have struggled and as their own has
boomed?
JOHN PEET: I think they are. I think they are. You can see that when
you listen to Prime Minister Erdogan's speeches or when you talk to
Foreign Minister Davutoglu, their goal clearly continues to be one day
to join the European Union. But to quite a large extent, they've been
rebuffed by the Europeans. The French and Germans have made clear that
they don't want Turkey as a member and I think they are increasingly
seeing their role in the Middle East as not quite an alternative, but
as giving them some broader position that doesn't just depend on
Europe.
MICHEL MARTIN: There are still concerns about Turkey's human rights
record, are there not? This morning, we heard that a Turkish air
strike reportedly killed more than 30 people in a Kurdish area of
Iraq. Do you see these human rights concerns abating as time goes on
or is there still a concern that particularly the current regime kind
of has an authoritarian tilt that is of concern?
RAMI KHOURI: Well, the Turks are really making a transition, which is
a transition that any mature country or regional power goes through,
which is they come out of this idealistic, romantic world where they
say, as they have for years, that they want to have good relations
with everybody. They want to have no enemies in the region and that
worked for a few years.
But then their relations with Israel became tense. Their relations
with Iran may be getting a little bit more tense because of Syria.
They still have the Cypress issue that's unresolved. The Armenian
issue is unresolved. The Kurdish issue.
So they're really living in the real world, but it's a real world in
which the assets and the positives that I mentioned of Turkey far
outweigh the negative ones. And it's really exciting to watch Turkey
develop. And its problems are still there. They have to address them,
but I think they have the tools to address them more effectively than
has been the case in many other countries in the region.
MICHEL MARTIN: Rami Khouri is editor-at-large of The Daily Star in
Beirut, Lebanon. We reached him there. We heard also from John Peet.
He is the Europe editor at The Economist magazine and he was kind
enough to join us from Wilshire, England.
Thank you so much for speaking with us and happy holidays, once again.
RAMI KHOURI: Thank you and you, too.
JOHN PEET: Thank you. No problem.
SHOW: Tell Me More 11:00 AM EST
December 29, 2011 Thursday
Turkey Prospers Amid Neighboring Nations' Woes
GUESTS: Recep Tayyip Erdogan , John Peet, Rami Khouri, Ahmet Davutoglu
MICHEL MARTIN: I'm Michel Martin and this is TELL ME MORE from NPR
News. Coming up, it's time for Kwanzaa, the week long celebration of
the African Diaspora. The holiday is supposed to emphasize family and
community and all things homemade, so of course, we're going to talk
about food you might want to serve for your Kwanzaa celebration or
just because.
But first, as 2011 winds down, we're taking some time to offer a twist
on the traditional end of year roundup here at TELL ME MORE and, in
fact, across NPR all week, we're highlighting the people, movements
and ideas that had a good year.
Today, we turn to the country of Turkey. It was once called the sick
man of Europe, but all that has changed in the last decade. Just this
year, its neighbors to the west have gone through an economic crisis
that still threatens to topple the eurozone.
Turkey's economy has been booming with an estimated seven percent
growth. Its neighbors to the east and south have gone through
widespread demonstrations and political turmoil, but Turkey has
championed the cause of the Arab Spring and is being increasingly
recognized as a regional player.
Let's listen to this speech by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip
Erdogan addressed to the Syrian president. First, you'll hear his
voice and then you'll hear the voice of the translator. Here it is.
Recep Tayyip Erdogan : (Through Translator) If you believe in
yourself, if you are confident as a leader, you would call for
elections. If these ballot boxes take you to power, then you will come
to power and rule that country. You can remain in power with tanks and
cannons only up to a certain point. The day will come when you will
leave.
MICHEL MARTIN: We wanted to talk more about why this has been a good
year for Turkey, so we have called upon Rami Khouri. He is the
editor-at-large of The Daily Star in Beirut, Lebanon. We reached him
there. Also with us is John Peet, the Europe editor at The Economist
magazine and we reached him in Wilshire, England.
Thank you both so much for joining us. Happy holidays to you both.
JOHN PEET: Same to you.
RAMI KHOURI: Thank you.
MICHEL MARTIN: So Mr. Peet, I'm going to start with you because the
economy is such a concern in the U.S. and Europe at this time. So I'd
like to ask you why Turkey's economy has had such a good year.
JOHN PEET: Well, it's had a series of good years, but this year, 2011,
has been probably better than most of the previous ones. The Turkey
economy was in terrible state up to about 10 years ago. It went
through repeated high inflation, (unintelligible) crises, trouble with
the currency and they did a lot of economic reform at the time.
They sorted out their banks 10 years ago and the last 10 years have
been very good years, booming times, very strong exports to Europe and
increasingly to the region and through Asia and they've done well
again this year, so they're much better off than the rest of Europe.
They look, really, like one of the BRIC countries.
MICHEL MARTIN: And has this rising tide lifted more boats than just
the few? I mean, has it, in fact, improved the living standard of
citizens in a way that they can feel?
JOHN PEET: Very strongly. I mean, the traditional visitor to Turkey
will go to Istanbul and life in Istanbul has been good for quite a
long time, but what I think has changed since I first went to Turkey
10 years ago has been the living standards right across the main
Anatolian land mass.
You go in to towns like Gaziantep or Kayseri in the middle of Anatolia
and living standards have increased very substantially in the last 10
years. People, you know - there are quite a lot of much richer people
and the average is much higher than it was. So it's been a pretty good
time for most Turks.
MICHEL MARTIN: And Rami Khouri, let's bring you into the conversation.
Here's Turkey's foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, speaking to Al
Jazeera English about their policy toward the Arab Spring protests
this summer.
AHMET DAVUTOGLU: We established two principles. One is, now, it is
time for change in our region. There is a need of a new politics in
our region. Second, the method of this change should be peaceful
transformation.
MICHEL MARTIN: Now, of course, Rami, many, you know, diplomats from
many countries have been saying this, but they are not necessarily
believed. Tell us a little bit about what Turkey's role has been in
the course of this tumultuous period. And are they seen as an
important player and to what end?
RAMI KHOURI: Well, Turkey has developed much greater influence in the
region and much closer - many closer, tighter connections in terms of
the business interests, some security interests, trade, tourism, open
borders, now they have open travel with many Arab countries. And this
has generated a sense that Turkey is not only a close partner, but
perhaps an influential big brother in some respects for some people in
the region and people look at Turkey in the Arab world, for the most
part, with a lot of admiration.
And almost everybody in the Arab world sees something in Turkey they
like. They like the business development, the economic boom, the
democratic transition, the rule of law. They like the Islamist
cultural influence, the fact that Islamist groups came into power.
Everybody sees something in Turkey that they like and the secular
nature of the system and, therefore, this has given Turkey some real
significant soft power influence in the region and it has tried to
learn over the last two or three years how to use that power, how to
use that influence in a constructive way, and as the foreign minister
pointed out, now they're pretty much focused on trying to promote
democratic peaceful transitions, which is what they experienced in
their own country, so this is something quite positive and
significant.
How much Turkey can actually be involved inside Arab countries to
promote this remains to be seen and this is their big challenge now,
to translate a broad principle into actual foreign policy and actions.
MICHEL MARTIN: And as part of NPR's year end series, we're looking at
how 2011 was a good year for the country of Turkey. We're speaking
with Rami Khouri of The Daily Star in Beirut and also John Peet of The
Economist.
Rami Khouri, pick up on that theme a bit, if you would. We're saying
that Turkey is more influential in the region. How does it see itself?
You're seeing its influence to what end, to help kind of ease the
transition to fuller participation in each of these countries and how?
RAMI KHOURI: Well, one of the things that Turkey is doing is that,
having become powerful, democratic, stable, self-confident, it's now
learning how to use that potential power and influence that it has
around the region.
At the beginning of the Arab Spring, the Turks were a little bit
caught on the back foot. In mid-year, they weren't quite sure in the
beginning what to do. They have huge business interests there. Then
they finally came down on the side of the people revolting for their
freedom.
And Syria, the same thing. They tried to intervene and then, finally,
they felt they were not treated honestly by the Syrian government and
they came out on the side of a democratic transition. So they're
trying. They're learning how to play the role of a regional power,
which is what they are.
They are doing this primarily for their own self-interests, as any
powerful country does. For them to have a democratic, stable,
prosperous and democratic Arab neighborhood is incredibly positive
because it drives their economy and then it helps in many other
strategic interests that they have.
MICHEL MARTIN: You know what's interesting is that Turkey, for years,
at least from a marketing perspective and also diplomatically, in some
ways, has positioned itself as kind of the bridge and the buffer
between Europe and the Middle East. But for years, Turkey's gone after
membership to the European Union with no results.
So John Peet, are Turks less interested now in joining the EU, you
know, as the European economies have struggled and as their own has
boomed?
JOHN PEET: I think they are. I think they are. You can see that when
you listen to Prime Minister Erdogan's speeches or when you talk to
Foreign Minister Davutoglu, their goal clearly continues to be one day
to join the European Union. But to quite a large extent, they've been
rebuffed by the Europeans. The French and Germans have made clear that
they don't want Turkey as a member and I think they are increasingly
seeing their role in the Middle East as not quite an alternative, but
as giving them some broader position that doesn't just depend on
Europe.
MICHEL MARTIN: There are still concerns about Turkey's human rights
record, are there not? This morning, we heard that a Turkish air
strike reportedly killed more than 30 people in a Kurdish area of
Iraq. Do you see these human rights concerns abating as time goes on
or is there still a concern that particularly the current regime kind
of has an authoritarian tilt that is of concern?
RAMI KHOURI: Well, the Turks are really making a transition, which is
a transition that any mature country or regional power goes through,
which is they come out of this idealistic, romantic world where they
say, as they have for years, that they want to have good relations
with everybody. They want to have no enemies in the region and that
worked for a few years.
But then their relations with Israel became tense. Their relations
with Iran may be getting a little bit more tense because of Syria.
They still have the Cypress issue that's unresolved. The Armenian
issue is unresolved. The Kurdish issue.
So they're really living in the real world, but it's a real world in
which the assets and the positives that I mentioned of Turkey far
outweigh the negative ones. And it's really exciting to watch Turkey
develop. And its problems are still there. They have to address them,
but I think they have the tools to address them more effectively than
has been the case in many other countries in the region.
MICHEL MARTIN: Rami Khouri is editor-at-large of The Daily Star in
Beirut, Lebanon. We reached him there. We heard also from John Peet.
He is the Europe editor at The Economist magazine and he was kind
enough to join us from Wilshire, England.
Thank you so much for speaking with us and happy holidays, once again.
RAMI KHOURI: Thank you and you, too.
JOHN PEET: Thank you. No problem.