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BDP DEPUTY SIRRI SAKIK: I WAS INVOLVED IN THE OSLO PROCESS
Hurriyet Daily News (in Turkish)
Oct 8 2012
Turkey
Interview by Cansu Camlibel
BDP [Peace and Democracy Party] Mus Parliamentary Deputy Sirri Sakik
experienced the greatest tragedy of his life approximately three
weeks ago. His seeing his son Sedar jump to his death before his
eyes was unspeakable. Sirri Sakik related that, three days before
his son committed suicide, he had seen Sedar's corpse on the balcony,
but that the event he [later] experienced was no dream.
Sirri Sakik is in his own expression someone who has been "tried by
suffering," but his son Sakik's jumping to his death right before his
eyes was, for him, truly the place where all words fail. In beginning
the interview, my intention was not to ask about those moments,
and indeed I did not ask. But he himself, while explaining how his
suffering built bridges, and how everyone revealed their desire for
peace, returned to that day. As he told of it, I noticed that, no
matter how great the wound may be, perhaps people can only heal it
by speaking of it. It was not his girlfriend that caused 25-year-old
Sedar to give up on life, nor was it youthful folly. What was so hard
to bear was that people had loaded his identity onto his shoulders
ever since he was a child. Sirri Sakik related all of this for
the first time, with the hope that it would contribute to internal
peace in Turkey... He also related another thing for the first time:
It turns out that he was involved in the Oslo process, along with
[longtime Kurdish politician] Ahmet Turk.
[Q] What did you experience in the period after losing your son?
[A] I would like to begin my comments by expressing thanks. I thank
all the peoples of Turkey, who were with us and shared our pain,
both in the funeral ceremony and in the mourning period. It is
impossible to describe the pain of losing Sedar. Even if I were to
live a thousand years, I could still never forget that moment, his
slipping away from us, and his farewell to us. Ever since that day I
have been in great pain. For this reason, I feel empathy. Every day
for years now in this geographical region, people in their 20s like
Sedar have been buried while still in the prime of their lives. How
unfortunate it is that we have been unable to give peace to Sedar,
and to the other Sedars of this country. They have been unable to
see peace. How painful it is that we are all paying the very steep
price of living in this country. I wish, and I hope, that internal
peace among us will be achieved as soon as possible. But even if
internal peace were achieved, and even if our wounds were bound up,
this pain cannot be overcome in 20 years.
[Q] What sort of a price are you talking about paying?
[A] There are traumas in a major port of society. Our country has gone
through a very bad period. The people have paid a very heavy price
because the problems have not been solved. Sedar's life story as well
begins with this. When I was elected in 1991 and came here as a young
parliamentary deputy, Sedar was four years old. The children began
life here, and began to get friends here. Naturally, in the period
until 2004, we suffered a very tyrannical attack. During the DEP
[Democracy Party] process, we were all carried off to prison. The
children were still small. Everyone experienced great pain during
that process. My wife experienced it in the same way. The same
sufferings were experienced by the children and the spouses of our
other colleagues, as well. Wherever they went, they were excluded. In
the schools, they were always confronted with that rhetoric of hatred.
They confronted discriminatory policies. I compare it to this:
In the 1960s, following the execution of [former Prime Minister]
Adnan Menderes and his people, the discriminatory policies implemented
against their children were applied to our children as well. Each one
of my children has a few memories of this. Sedar attended the Yuce Fen
High School. One day he said: "One of our teachers is always putting
me down. If you come to the school, he teaches at so-and-so o'clock.
When you come, you can se e through the glass in the top part of the
door how he treats me." I went at the time he specified, and I watched
the behaviour of the teacher through that glass. He called him up to
the blackboard, yelled at him, insulted him, and humiliated him. I
went to the principal of the school and brought him. Naturally, this
was the period when we had gotten out of prison. The school principal
watched along with me. We did not intervene, but after the bell rang,
the principal summoned the teacher. At first he denied it, of course.
Later we took Sedar out of there and took him to another school. My
middle son was stabbed in a number of places on his body, and barely
survived, in 2002. Our children grew up in this way. They went into
business; they open a business, and when their identity becomes known,
immediately a bloc forms against them. It is the same thing in every
area of life. I used to wait, along with my wife, outside the school
every day when the students came out. I lost my wife at a very young
age. I am certain that this was a reflection of these things she
had experienced.
Our Identity is a Problem in Every Area
[Q] So was it his business life that was at the root of Sedar's
problems?
[A] Sedar had opened a business a year earlier. After all, he had
no chance to get a job in an institution of the state. And it was
impossible for him to find one in the private sector. That is the
type of identity we have. Yes, he was experiencing some problems in
terms of business. But this would not have been a problem from our
standpoint. We have paid a very heavy price for this war. We were
one of the wealthiest families of Mus; we lost everything we had there.
But despite this, we have no difficulties from the economic standpoint.
[Q] He was a young person; he must certainly have had a desire to
prove himself.
[A] In fact, he thought as follows for a while: Our identity is very
prominent in Ankara, perhaps it would be easier for me to establish a
business in Istanbul, where we are not that much known. I supported
this thinking of his. I told them that wherever they would live, I
would be behind them. We spoke of this throughout the summer. But on
that unfortunate night...Do you know, three days before that night,
I went out onto the balcony and I saw Sedar's corpse there. I told
my friends about this as well. I lived in great anxiety for three days.
Yes, I saw such a thing. It was not a dream. I went out onto my
balcony and saw it. I turned around and immediately went back inside.
That night, I was together with [Parliamentary Deputy] Sirri (Sureyya
Onder). We heard gunshots, and went out onto the balcony with a sudden
reflex. Sedar was not there yet. We thought it was random shots and
went back inside. I called Sedar and said that such things were going
on in the vicinity and he should come home. In fact, Sirri said "don't
press him too much." I said: "Sirri, I have been worried about such
things for the past three days; I have a fear in my that something is
going to happen to Sedar." Later Sedar came. He had had a bad night. I
took him into the bedroom, and had him take off the clothes he had on.
He lay down on the bed. I went downstairs, but the door was open and I
kept my eye on it. I heard a scream and went up to the upper floor. I
looked and he was on the balcony. I took the phone from his hand and
tried to figure out who it was on the other end that was bothering
him, and what was going on. But he said "I'm going, and that's all"
and jumped off. I went down and we took him to the hospital, covered in
blood. But when we were taking him, I already knew that Sedar was gone.
[Q] Are you aware of the things that took place on social media
regarding Sedar's death?
[A] I wish that God would not punish even those who attacked us on
social media in this way, and that He would not cause them to suffer
the loss of a child. Let Him not cause anyone to suffer it. But how
unfortunate it is that, in this geographic region in which we live,
every day, dozens of Sedars are being buried. Sometimes when I am
speaking at a rally, a note is placed before me, informing me that
a clash has taken place in that region, and 15 soldiers have been
killed. Bursting out crying on the podium... Those people are still
children. So looking at it just through this window, we finally have
to have a conscience. Whether it is a policeman, a soldier, or a
guerrilla, I suffer for all of them in my heart. I arrived at this
point after having been tested for years by suffering; I tasted all
the various pains. My mother, my father, my wife, my elder sister, my
elder brother, my younger brother... We have lost so many people from
the people who struggled alongside us. I went to express condolences
for all of them, and indeed went to the families of soldiers as well
that would not react negatively.
[Q] Well, then, who shared your suffering in the true sense?
[A] After this pain, a serious bridge came about in Turkey. During
the days when I was in Mus, tens of thousands of people came every
day and hugged me, crying. In the Turkish public, you can be sure
that everyone, from the President [Abdullah Gul] to the Prime Minister
[Recep Tayyip Erdogan], from [Republican People's Party -CHP -Chairman
Kemal] Kilicdaroglu to [Nationalist Action Party -MHP -Chairman Devlet]
Bahceli, as well as former Prime Ministers and Ministers to business
circles, and everyone from all over Turkey, from Edirne to Artvin,
shared this pain of mine. Thousands of letters from prisons, and the
tears on those letters, are still there. I read them all, one by one,
and I am going to answer every one of them. One of those that most
touched me was that families who had lost their children at Roboski
[Ortasu] gathered and came to me after a journey of 8 to 10 hours. They
came and shared in the pain. My pain was but a drop in the ocean as
compared to theirs, because their children's bodies had been blasted
to bits. The bodies of the children and those of the mules were only
distinguished via DNA tests. Some were only able to recognize their
children on the basis of a wristwatch, or a shoe...
The Prime Minister Also Has to be Able to Call Before People Like
Sedar Die
[Q] Was there anyone who was a surprise in the mourning period?
[A] To tell the truth, the most surprising one was [former Prime
Minister Tansu] Ciller. People whom I indicated as responsible for a
certain period. [Former Interior Minister] Mehmet Agar, for instance,
sent me a condolence telegram. But this is in our general makeup. On
such days, we display a stance of standing side by side. But life
commands that we do something else. We should display a stance of
standing alongside one another not just on days of suffering, but on
the other days as well. We cannot build the future by continually
getting stuck in the past. In order to build the future, we have
to experience a period of mutual forgiveness. I recall the 1999
earthquake. What a solidarity was experienced! Even the crisis and
the tensions with Greece were put aside. Do we absolutely have to
have a disaster for such things? Do people like Sedar always have
to die? The Prime Minister has to be able to call us at other times
as well. We are a reality of this country. We have to be able to
talk. Indeed, that is just what we are unable to do today. When the
Prime Minister called, that is what I told him. Actually, I do not
know how the media portrayed it all at the time.
[Q] Reports along the following lines came out: You supposedly told
him: "Only you can stop the bloodshed; if you can succeed in this,
you will become beloved in this country."
[A] Actually, this headline was not quite correct. What actually
took place between us was as follows. I told him: "I have been tried
by suffering. I lost my wife, my mother, my father, my brother, and
my comrades in the struggle, but you can be sure that no pain is as
much as that of losing a child. When I experienced this, every day in
this geographical region, doze ns of children were being buried. You
as well have experienced the pain of losing a mother, a father,
a sibling. May God spare you the pain of losing a child. But every
country has its ownbeloved figure, because they engaged in leadership
in various areas in their countries. You can be a beloved figure in
this country. There is serious support behind you in Turkish society."
And he said to me: "I took many steps, but then fighting took place."
So I told him: "If you wish, you could stop that fighting." This
was the conversation between us. I conveyed to him the message that:
"You could stop this war, and you have a responsibility to do so."
[Q] Were you able to follow the developments in politics during
that period?
[A] After Sedar, I passed through a very painful process, but there
were also things that encouraged me. The statements of [Justice
Minister] Sadullah Ergin, and those of [Deputy Prime Minister] Besir
[Atalay] and [Deputy Prime Minister] Bulent Arinc.The messages
that a new process of talks could begin. It was said that all of
the expectations would be voiced at the [Justice and Development
Party -AKP] party congress. We all became fixated on the television
screens on the day of the congress, with the expectation that serious
steps would be taken. But then we saw that, once again, nationalist,
religious, and racist rhetoric came to the fore. This was not what
gave you [rhetorically addressing Erdogan] 50 per cent of the votes.
The Oslo talks, and the talks with Ocalan, had been reflected publicly,
and society gave you 58 per cent of the vote in the [constitutional
amendment] referendum. This means that those who come before you with
racist talk do not have resonance in society.
[Q] I understand that you have a very negative reaction to the
[military authorization] motion that was passed, which included
including Syria.
[A] What happened to the government's past policy of zero problems
with the neighbours? The point that has now been reached is nothing
but problems. You passed authorization motions for war. Mortar shells
then fell at Akcakale. And the mortar shells fired from Akcakale in
retaliation killed children in some other village on the other side.
Everyone with a conscience should speak up for peace, both within the
country and outside it. Are we ourselves not at all at fault? If you
take the [Syrian] oppositionists and bring them here, and get them to
launch attacks, there is only naturally going to be a reaction from
the other side. Could we not have created a climate, by following a
milder path, that would show respect for the will of the different
peoples there? In other words, the younger [Syrian President Bashar]
Al-Asad, and the father [former Syrian President Hafiz al-Asad],
are killers. Yes, killers.
[Q] You are calling the father a killer as well.
[A] That is what he was. He caused bitter years for the different
peoples.
[Q] Did not Hafiz al-Asad have a very different function from the
standpoint of the organizing of the Kurdish movement in Turkey?
[A] I am not getting into that aspect now, but whoever oppresses
peoples is a killer, and a tyrant. These things were known, but until
just a year and a half ago, there were friendly relations. Turkey
could have played a "big brother" role there.
[Q] But when reacting against the Roboski incident, is it also not
necessary to react against Al-Asad's bombing his own people on a
daily basis?
[A] We certainly do react! But why did the government, which today
reacts against Al-Asad because he conducts massacres, not show the
same reaction when 35 Kurds were killed in Al-Qamishli in 2004? There
was massacre then as well. This was a massacre of Kurds. But they did
not say a word. They were bosom buddies with Al-Asad. Now, when the
balances change, and when the Kurds begin to obtain a status there,
Ankara has risen up. Massacres need to be opposed as a whole. The Ba'th
regime is conducting massacres, but those acting as the Free Syrian
Ar my take their opponents up to the seventh floor of a building and
toss them off, killing them cruelly. We do not have any obligation to
make a choice between two evils. First of all, Turkey should solve
its own fundamental problems. And not just Roboski. There are 25
bodies that were blown to smithereens in Afyon just a month ago.
[Q] What do you think happened at Afyon?
[A] You take draftees with three days of military service and you send
them to death in the late hours of the night. It is still murky how
that incident happened. And we will never learn. Because the military
is a closed box. Its expenditures cannot be monitored, and the things
that happen within it cannot be questioned or elucidated. Over the
past 20 years, approximately 2,200 soldiers have committed suicide!
There are also hundreds of suspicious deaths. Not a one of these can
ever be clarified. Roboski has still not been clarified, and those
responsible have not been able to be revealed. Because the military
is not held accountable.Afyon as well has been covered with the same
curtain of fog. A closed session is held for the motion. Why? Life
has shown us that the minutes that will come out 10 years later are
no insurance against disasters. The more you approve such motions,
the more you will witness new Roboskis, the more new Afyons will take
place, and the more innocent people will die. The way to stop these
things is not struggle, but rather negotiations. It is always struggle
against the Kurds, struggle against the Alevis, struggle against the
Armenians. The only thing you have not done to date is negotiate.
I Was in the Oslo Process
[Q] Why does the BDP remain weak vis-a-vis the PKK [Kurdistan People's
Congress, KGK] in terms of the weapons' falling silent?
[A] Does the state or the government have a project for the weapons
to fall silent? If there is no project or road map out there, what can
the BDP do in this regard? The BDP puts out a project for the weapons
to fall silent, and makes appeals every day, but the response it has
gotten is to be rejected, and to be put under pressure. 8,000 people,
ranging from politicians to lawyers, are under arrest in the prisons.
Is there any BDP left? It is the government itself here that lacks
will on the point of the weapons' being put down. Otherwise, the BDP is
prepared to offer every sort of contribution. The following must also
not be forgotten: It is a fact that there is a serious crisis of trust.
[Q] Do you really believe that the government could lay out a new
project without the weapons falling silent?
[A] There are two ways to get the guns to go silent. Either you defeat
the other side, and the weapons go silent. Or else you negotiate
and solve the problem, and then the weapons go silent. Bu in our
country, unfortunately, debates regarding the Kurdish issue only
come onto the agenda when the fighting escalates. What I call the
crisis of trust is a state of affairs that has continued ever since
the founding of the Republic. They said "come and let us sit down
together and discuss the constitution" and then they took Seyh Sait
[the leader of the 1925 Kurdish/Islamic rebellion] and hanged him. It
was the same in the incident with Seyit Riza [the leader of the 1937
revolt] in Dersim [Tunceli]; they invited him for a compromise and
then they set an ambush for him on the Erzurum road and executed him
in Elazig. During the 30-year-long period of war, the PKK withdrew to
outside the borders at the direction of [PKK leader Abdullah] Ocalan,
and a period of non-conflict was experienced until 2004. In fact,
in order to strengthen this, peace groups came from Qandil and from
Europe, at Ocalan's call, but they got heavy punishments. Also,
when the [PKK's] armed forces were leaving the country, certain
units of the state set up ambushes, and the withdrawing guerrillas
were killed. Included among those who died was the son of my elder
brother. So now, faced with such a tableau, how are you going to bri
ng about an atmosphere of trust?
[Q] On what point was the crisis of trust experienced most recently?
[A] Look: I was involved in the Oslo process that continued between
2006 and 2011. Ahmet Turk and I were always within that process. The
most important step of that process was Habur [referring to the entry
of the peace groups]. People came through Habur so that a process of
peace and a democratic solution would begin. And then what happened?
Nationalism and racism were escalated. The government backed down. And
all of them got 60-year sentences.
I was at Habur when they arrived. When I left the house, the mother
of my nephew Mufit, whom I just mentioned -she did not yet know
that her son had died, and thought he was in the mountains -spoke
to me as follows: "Oh, if only I could go as well. My Mufit could
be in the guerrilla group. If only I could see him." My eyes filled
with tears, and my heart was torn, but I couldn't say anything. With
these emotions, we went to welcome them at Habur. Kurds were there,
with the hope that peace would finally come, and that their children
would come back safe and sound. If we were to devote all of our efforts
for months, we could not get such a crowd of people together. For the
first time, not coffins, but living young people came through Habur.
Everyone was there, thinking that they were coming within the scope of
a roadmap for peace. One has to understand this correctly. There may
have been deficiencies, but there was no evil intent there, no show.
That is how they saw it from the west [of the country]: the Kurds
were staging a show. What sort of show were the Kurds supposed to make
after 50,000 deaths? But we were unable to explain ourselves clearly,
it seems.
We Learned of Plan B Afterwards
[Q] A similar sort of reaction came from the component of society that
you call the west this summer to the hugs [between BDP politicians
and PKK guerrillas] in Hakkari. Those people are also experiencing
an anxiety, a mistrust.
[A] It was the policies of Ankara, and nationalism, that brought the
west to this point. The things going on east of the Euphrates were
hidden from the west for the sake of votes, and things were explained
otherwise to people. The perceptions were distorted. Now, in order for
the anxiety and the mistrust to be eliminated, certainly we all have a
duty and a responsibility. But the real responsibility lies with the
government. Because it will be the government itself, if it indeed
has the intention for it, that will explain to the people in the west
[of Turkey] that peace is as necessary in this country as water or
food, and that a solution is vital for this country, and that thereby
will create a climate of peace. The government must not follow a dual
policy. It should not have a plan B in addition to the plan A. In the
process of the Oslo talks, there was a serious crisis of confidence.
We learned afterwards that, while the state had a plan A, it also
had a plan B.
[Q] What was plan B?
[A] Plan B was the project of annihilating the PKK, that is, that
if the PKK could be gotten rid of, then the Kurdish question would
disappear. Can this affair really be resolved by eliminating the PKK?
Later, we heard that while Oslo was underway, they continued a
four-way discussion with Iraq, Iran, and Syria on elimination. In
fact the real reason that Al-Asad came here was for these talks. If
you look at it with this logic, you cannot resolve the problem. This
problem cannot be resolved by playing tricks in order to eliminate one
another. The state finally has to abandon the games and the habits of
the Ottomans. The Kurds are no longer the old Kurds. They are the most
important political factor and force for change in the region. They
cannot fool the Kurds. Today, young people are being inculcated with
the spirit of 1071 [the Battle of Manzikert, in which the Seljuq Turks
defeated a Byzantine army and enabled large-scale Turkish migration
into Anatolia to begin] and t he goal of 2071 is being pointed to. But
the place you entered in 1071 was the geography of the Kurds. That
ancient people there opened the doors to you, and acted jointly with
you. [Seljuq Sultan] Alparslan won the victory by forming an alliance
with the Kurds. Ever since the Ottomans, and when the Republic was
founded as well, the Kurds have always acted as partners. But the
promises given to the Kurds were not kept. There were 13 [Kurdish]
revolts under the Ottomans, and 16 revolts during the Republic. And
you have not solved this problem.
[Q] From that geography, the leader of the Kurds in Iraq [Kurdistan
Regional Government President Mas'ud Barzani] came for the AKP
Congress. Did the applause of "Turkey is proud of you" that was given
when he went up to the podium not surprise you?
[A] Barzani comes and speaks in Kurdish at your congress, but when
I quote a proverb in my own parliament, it goes down in the minutes
as something said in an unknown language. And then on the other hand
you say "we have eliminated the rejection and the denial." Are the
Kurds able to have education in their own native language? Can they
express themselves in it in institutions and in the public? You go
there [to the Iraqi Kurdistan Region] with your ministers and meet
at the presidential level, you open consulates, and you establish
THY [Turkish Airlines] offices, and then you come back and tell us
"pay no attention to these things"!
[Q] The authoritative voices in the BDP say that there is no longer
any demand for a "united Kurdistan." After Iraq, and despite the
developments taking place in Syria, this demand now is on the table,
is it not?
[A] We, as the Kurds living in Turkey, have no state in our heads. We
want to be equal citizens on the level of the constitution, and to
have a say and a decision-making ability in the administration. What
the Kurds really want is for the rights that have been taken away from
them to be given constitutional and legal guarantees. We have called
this democratic autonomy; others can call it something else. As long
as we discuss it and generate a joint project. There are also Kurds,
apart from us, who have a demand for federation. I think that, among
the Kurds, a structure that would bring common rights together, and to
have a say and a decision-making ability in the administration, would
find more support. The real problem is here: There is no tolerance
for the words Kurd or Kurdistan. They invite Barzani to their own
congresses, but the Prime Minister does not mention the name of the
geographical region whose leader he has invited. They do not stand
up for the guest they have brought. They hem and haw on the issue.
[Q] You speak of a local parliament.
[A] We propose democratic autonomy not only for the Kurdish region,
but for Turkey as a whole. It is very difficult to administer all of
Turkey from Ankara. At the moment, there is a very rigidly centralized
administration. If a new administrative model can be realized in
which Ankara is reduced in size, the people take part directly in
the decision-making processes, regional assemblies are formed, and
the authority of local levels is increased, this would make the way
open for Turkey, and would solve the problems.
Are Kurds Tourists That You Will Speak With Them Through Interpreters?
[Q] Are points in the AKP's 2023 Vision Document, such as access to
public services in the native language, making [court] defence in
the native language no longer a problem, and Kurdish interpretation
services, not steps?
[A] Now they are talking of interpreting in public institutions. A
Kurd goes and, rather than dealing at first hand with the person
opposite him if it is a Kurd, will be obliged to have an interpreter.
Is there any need for such a contrary situation, and for doing things
in such a backward way? What sort of a solution approach is it to
find interpreters in public institutions for people who are unable
to receive education in their mother tongue ? Instead of finding
interpreters, give those people the right to be educated in their
native language. Are the Kurds in this country tourists that you
communicate with them via interpreters? Ever since the founding of
the Republic, the Kurds have been put off, and now they are going
to wait until 2023? With young people dying every day, Turkey does
not even have another 2,023 seconds to waste. Turkey has to make a
transition from a lack of vision, which kills, to vision, which will
enable people to live.
[Q] The government is saying that "the PKK attacks that escalated in
the summer months have let down the BDP."
[A] The government should not seek refuge behind such excuses. During
the spring months, before the fighting stepped up, our Co-Chairpersons
met with a minister of the government and said: "Come, let us generate
a solution together; otherwise the flames will spread everywhere." But
the government did not listen, and paid no attention. Actually, it is
the government itself that let the BDP down. What did the government
do during the period of cessation of action? What steps did it take?
It excluded the BDP at every opportunity, and plugged its ears to
the BDP's proposals.
New Negotiations Impossible With Current Imrali System
[Q] Has, in your view, a new process begun?
[A] I think, and hope, that in spite of everything, positive
developments could begin. Because Turkey needs this; it needs
normalization and peace. They should begin wherever they left off.
Turkish society is not against the launching of a negotiations process
in order for the bloodshed to come to an end. Everyone just wants
this bloodshed to stop. The government has to see this reality, to
approach the process not tactically but strategically, and to aim at
a final solution. In terms of Oslo, the government has to be sincere;
it should not approach things in an ambivalent way, and should not
establish a hidden agenda. Everything should be open and transparent,
and the government, as the political will, should say that it is going
to launch a new negotiations process and that it is going to stand
behind this. At the negotiating table should be not intelligence
officials but rather representatives of the political will. The
Kurdish issue is not an intelligence matter, and is not a problem
that MIT [National Intelligence Organization] can solve. This issue
is a political issue, and the interlocutor is the political authority.
[Q] Have channels of communication been opened with Ocalan?
[A] Apart from a few talks at a limited level with his family, one
cannot speak of channels of communication having been opened. The
isolation being implemented against him has been continuing for over
a year now. All of his lawyers are under arrest. [His brother] Mehmet
Ocalan goes back and forth; we see this both from his statements and
from those of government officials. But family visits are a separate
matter. The essential thing here is that the channels of dialogue
need to be opened up with Imrali again, and the way needs to be made
open for him to be able to play a role for peace. But this will not
work with the current Imrali system.
[Q] There is a question of an investigation summary being prepared
regarding some individuals in the party. What will be the result
of this?
[A] There is a great saying: "You cannot dry today's laundry with
yesterday's sunshine." I recall very well that in 1994, [then Prime
Minister Tansu] Ciller said "I have spoken with the judiciary;
finish these people off." Today as well, the Prime Minister is
saying the same thing; he says "both we and the judiciary will do
what is required." Even if you arrest all of us and take away our
parliamentary status, the tradition that we come out of us a tradition
of sacrifice. None of us have any concern for parliamentary status or
for titles. Do you have no other method on this issue than the process
that has been going on ever since 1994? If you insist on this method,
then you will have entirely closed off Ankara, and the parliament,
from the Kurds. The consequences of doing this should be considered
carefully. Such a historic mistake should not be entered into. We
see the parliament as a place for a solution. And since the people
think in this way as well, they overcame a thousand and one different
obstacles and sent their representatives to the parliament. To ignore
this will of the people would be the worst thing that could be done to
this country. We hope that this error will not be committed again. I
want to conclude with a quotation from Mevlana [medieival Persian poet
Rumi]: "We should not plant any other seeds in this field but love."
[Translated from Turkish]
Hurriyet Daily News (in Turkish)
Oct 8 2012
Turkey
Interview by Cansu Camlibel
BDP [Peace and Democracy Party] Mus Parliamentary Deputy Sirri Sakik
experienced the greatest tragedy of his life approximately three
weeks ago. His seeing his son Sedar jump to his death before his
eyes was unspeakable. Sirri Sakik related that, three days before
his son committed suicide, he had seen Sedar's corpse on the balcony,
but that the event he [later] experienced was no dream.
Sirri Sakik is in his own expression someone who has been "tried by
suffering," but his son Sakik's jumping to his death right before his
eyes was, for him, truly the place where all words fail. In beginning
the interview, my intention was not to ask about those moments,
and indeed I did not ask. But he himself, while explaining how his
suffering built bridges, and how everyone revealed their desire for
peace, returned to that day. As he told of it, I noticed that, no
matter how great the wound may be, perhaps people can only heal it
by speaking of it. It was not his girlfriend that caused 25-year-old
Sedar to give up on life, nor was it youthful folly. What was so hard
to bear was that people had loaded his identity onto his shoulders
ever since he was a child. Sirri Sakik related all of this for
the first time, with the hope that it would contribute to internal
peace in Turkey... He also related another thing for the first time:
It turns out that he was involved in the Oslo process, along with
[longtime Kurdish politician] Ahmet Turk.
[Q] What did you experience in the period after losing your son?
[A] I would like to begin my comments by expressing thanks. I thank
all the peoples of Turkey, who were with us and shared our pain,
both in the funeral ceremony and in the mourning period. It is
impossible to describe the pain of losing Sedar. Even if I were to
live a thousand years, I could still never forget that moment, his
slipping away from us, and his farewell to us. Ever since that day I
have been in great pain. For this reason, I feel empathy. Every day
for years now in this geographical region, people in their 20s like
Sedar have been buried while still in the prime of their lives. How
unfortunate it is that we have been unable to give peace to Sedar,
and to the other Sedars of this country. They have been unable to
see peace. How painful it is that we are all paying the very steep
price of living in this country. I wish, and I hope, that internal
peace among us will be achieved as soon as possible. But even if
internal peace were achieved, and even if our wounds were bound up,
this pain cannot be overcome in 20 years.
[Q] What sort of a price are you talking about paying?
[A] There are traumas in a major port of society. Our country has gone
through a very bad period. The people have paid a very heavy price
because the problems have not been solved. Sedar's life story as well
begins with this. When I was elected in 1991 and came here as a young
parliamentary deputy, Sedar was four years old. The children began
life here, and began to get friends here. Naturally, in the period
until 2004, we suffered a very tyrannical attack. During the DEP
[Democracy Party] process, we were all carried off to prison. The
children were still small. Everyone experienced great pain during
that process. My wife experienced it in the same way. The same
sufferings were experienced by the children and the spouses of our
other colleagues, as well. Wherever they went, they were excluded. In
the schools, they were always confronted with that rhetoric of hatred.
They confronted discriminatory policies. I compare it to this:
In the 1960s, following the execution of [former Prime Minister]
Adnan Menderes and his people, the discriminatory policies implemented
against their children were applied to our children as well. Each one
of my children has a few memories of this. Sedar attended the Yuce Fen
High School. One day he said: "One of our teachers is always putting
me down. If you come to the school, he teaches at so-and-so o'clock.
When you come, you can se e through the glass in the top part of the
door how he treats me." I went at the time he specified, and I watched
the behaviour of the teacher through that glass. He called him up to
the blackboard, yelled at him, insulted him, and humiliated him. I
went to the principal of the school and brought him. Naturally, this
was the period when we had gotten out of prison. The school principal
watched along with me. We did not intervene, but after the bell rang,
the principal summoned the teacher. At first he denied it, of course.
Later we took Sedar out of there and took him to another school. My
middle son was stabbed in a number of places on his body, and barely
survived, in 2002. Our children grew up in this way. They went into
business; they open a business, and when their identity becomes known,
immediately a bloc forms against them. It is the same thing in every
area of life. I used to wait, along with my wife, outside the school
every day when the students came out. I lost my wife at a very young
age. I am certain that this was a reflection of these things she
had experienced.
Our Identity is a Problem in Every Area
[Q] So was it his business life that was at the root of Sedar's
problems?
[A] Sedar had opened a business a year earlier. After all, he had
no chance to get a job in an institution of the state. And it was
impossible for him to find one in the private sector. That is the
type of identity we have. Yes, he was experiencing some problems in
terms of business. But this would not have been a problem from our
standpoint. We have paid a very heavy price for this war. We were
one of the wealthiest families of Mus; we lost everything we had there.
But despite this, we have no difficulties from the economic standpoint.
[Q] He was a young person; he must certainly have had a desire to
prove himself.
[A] In fact, he thought as follows for a while: Our identity is very
prominent in Ankara, perhaps it would be easier for me to establish a
business in Istanbul, where we are not that much known. I supported
this thinking of his. I told them that wherever they would live, I
would be behind them. We spoke of this throughout the summer. But on
that unfortunate night...Do you know, three days before that night,
I went out onto the balcony and I saw Sedar's corpse there. I told
my friends about this as well. I lived in great anxiety for three days.
Yes, I saw such a thing. It was not a dream. I went out onto my
balcony and saw it. I turned around and immediately went back inside.
That night, I was together with [Parliamentary Deputy] Sirri (Sureyya
Onder). We heard gunshots, and went out onto the balcony with a sudden
reflex. Sedar was not there yet. We thought it was random shots and
went back inside. I called Sedar and said that such things were going
on in the vicinity and he should come home. In fact, Sirri said "don't
press him too much." I said: "Sirri, I have been worried about such
things for the past three days; I have a fear in my that something is
going to happen to Sedar." Later Sedar came. He had had a bad night. I
took him into the bedroom, and had him take off the clothes he had on.
He lay down on the bed. I went downstairs, but the door was open and I
kept my eye on it. I heard a scream and went up to the upper floor. I
looked and he was on the balcony. I took the phone from his hand and
tried to figure out who it was on the other end that was bothering
him, and what was going on. But he said "I'm going, and that's all"
and jumped off. I went down and we took him to the hospital, covered in
blood. But when we were taking him, I already knew that Sedar was gone.
[Q] Are you aware of the things that took place on social media
regarding Sedar's death?
[A] I wish that God would not punish even those who attacked us on
social media in this way, and that He would not cause them to suffer
the loss of a child. Let Him not cause anyone to suffer it. But how
unfortunate it is that, in this geographic region in which we live,
every day, dozens of Sedars are being buried. Sometimes when I am
speaking at a rally, a note is placed before me, informing me that
a clash has taken place in that region, and 15 soldiers have been
killed. Bursting out crying on the podium... Those people are still
children. So looking at it just through this window, we finally have
to have a conscience. Whether it is a policeman, a soldier, or a
guerrilla, I suffer for all of them in my heart. I arrived at this
point after having been tested for years by suffering; I tasted all
the various pains. My mother, my father, my wife, my elder sister, my
elder brother, my younger brother... We have lost so many people from
the people who struggled alongside us. I went to express condolences
for all of them, and indeed went to the families of soldiers as well
that would not react negatively.
[Q] Well, then, who shared your suffering in the true sense?
[A] After this pain, a serious bridge came about in Turkey. During
the days when I was in Mus, tens of thousands of people came every
day and hugged me, crying. In the Turkish public, you can be sure
that everyone, from the President [Abdullah Gul] to the Prime Minister
[Recep Tayyip Erdogan], from [Republican People's Party -CHP -Chairman
Kemal] Kilicdaroglu to [Nationalist Action Party -MHP -Chairman Devlet]
Bahceli, as well as former Prime Ministers and Ministers to business
circles, and everyone from all over Turkey, from Edirne to Artvin,
shared this pain of mine. Thousands of letters from prisons, and the
tears on those letters, are still there. I read them all, one by one,
and I am going to answer every one of them. One of those that most
touched me was that families who had lost their children at Roboski
[Ortasu] gathered and came to me after a journey of 8 to 10 hours. They
came and shared in the pain. My pain was but a drop in the ocean as
compared to theirs, because their children's bodies had been blasted
to bits. The bodies of the children and those of the mules were only
distinguished via DNA tests. Some were only able to recognize their
children on the basis of a wristwatch, or a shoe...
The Prime Minister Also Has to be Able to Call Before People Like
Sedar Die
[Q] Was there anyone who was a surprise in the mourning period?
[A] To tell the truth, the most surprising one was [former Prime
Minister Tansu] Ciller. People whom I indicated as responsible for a
certain period. [Former Interior Minister] Mehmet Agar, for instance,
sent me a condolence telegram. But this is in our general makeup. On
such days, we display a stance of standing side by side. But life
commands that we do something else. We should display a stance of
standing alongside one another not just on days of suffering, but on
the other days as well. We cannot build the future by continually
getting stuck in the past. In order to build the future, we have
to experience a period of mutual forgiveness. I recall the 1999
earthquake. What a solidarity was experienced! Even the crisis and
the tensions with Greece were put aside. Do we absolutely have to
have a disaster for such things? Do people like Sedar always have
to die? The Prime Minister has to be able to call us at other times
as well. We are a reality of this country. We have to be able to
talk. Indeed, that is just what we are unable to do today. When the
Prime Minister called, that is what I told him. Actually, I do not
know how the media portrayed it all at the time.
[Q] Reports along the following lines came out: You supposedly told
him: "Only you can stop the bloodshed; if you can succeed in this,
you will become beloved in this country."
[A] Actually, this headline was not quite correct. What actually
took place between us was as follows. I told him: "I have been tried
by suffering. I lost my wife, my mother, my father, my brother, and
my comrades in the struggle, but you can be sure that no pain is as
much as that of losing a child. When I experienced this, every day in
this geographical region, doze ns of children were being buried. You
as well have experienced the pain of losing a mother, a father,
a sibling. May God spare you the pain of losing a child. But every
country has its ownbeloved figure, because they engaged in leadership
in various areas in their countries. You can be a beloved figure in
this country. There is serious support behind you in Turkish society."
And he said to me: "I took many steps, but then fighting took place."
So I told him: "If you wish, you could stop that fighting." This
was the conversation between us. I conveyed to him the message that:
"You could stop this war, and you have a responsibility to do so."
[Q] Were you able to follow the developments in politics during
that period?
[A] After Sedar, I passed through a very painful process, but there
were also things that encouraged me. The statements of [Justice
Minister] Sadullah Ergin, and those of [Deputy Prime Minister] Besir
[Atalay] and [Deputy Prime Minister] Bulent Arinc.The messages
that a new process of talks could begin. It was said that all of
the expectations would be voiced at the [Justice and Development
Party -AKP] party congress. We all became fixated on the television
screens on the day of the congress, with the expectation that serious
steps would be taken. But then we saw that, once again, nationalist,
religious, and racist rhetoric came to the fore. This was not what
gave you [rhetorically addressing Erdogan] 50 per cent of the votes.
The Oslo talks, and the talks with Ocalan, had been reflected publicly,
and society gave you 58 per cent of the vote in the [constitutional
amendment] referendum. This means that those who come before you with
racist talk do not have resonance in society.
[Q] I understand that you have a very negative reaction to the
[military authorization] motion that was passed, which included
including Syria.
[A] What happened to the government's past policy of zero problems
with the neighbours? The point that has now been reached is nothing
but problems. You passed authorization motions for war. Mortar shells
then fell at Akcakale. And the mortar shells fired from Akcakale in
retaliation killed children in some other village on the other side.
Everyone with a conscience should speak up for peace, both within the
country and outside it. Are we ourselves not at all at fault? If you
take the [Syrian] oppositionists and bring them here, and get them to
launch attacks, there is only naturally going to be a reaction from
the other side. Could we not have created a climate, by following a
milder path, that would show respect for the will of the different
peoples there? In other words, the younger [Syrian President Bashar]
Al-Asad, and the father [former Syrian President Hafiz al-Asad],
are killers. Yes, killers.
[Q] You are calling the father a killer as well.
[A] That is what he was. He caused bitter years for the different
peoples.
[Q] Did not Hafiz al-Asad have a very different function from the
standpoint of the organizing of the Kurdish movement in Turkey?
[A] I am not getting into that aspect now, but whoever oppresses
peoples is a killer, and a tyrant. These things were known, but until
just a year and a half ago, there were friendly relations. Turkey
could have played a "big brother" role there.
[Q] But when reacting against the Roboski incident, is it also not
necessary to react against Al-Asad's bombing his own people on a
daily basis?
[A] We certainly do react! But why did the government, which today
reacts against Al-Asad because he conducts massacres, not show the
same reaction when 35 Kurds were killed in Al-Qamishli in 2004? There
was massacre then as well. This was a massacre of Kurds. But they did
not say a word. They were bosom buddies with Al-Asad. Now, when the
balances change, and when the Kurds begin to obtain a status there,
Ankara has risen up. Massacres need to be opposed as a whole. The Ba'th
regime is conducting massacres, but those acting as the Free Syrian
Ar my take their opponents up to the seventh floor of a building and
toss them off, killing them cruelly. We do not have any obligation to
make a choice between two evils. First of all, Turkey should solve
its own fundamental problems. And not just Roboski. There are 25
bodies that were blown to smithereens in Afyon just a month ago.
[Q] What do you think happened at Afyon?
[A] You take draftees with three days of military service and you send
them to death in the late hours of the night. It is still murky how
that incident happened. And we will never learn. Because the military
is a closed box. Its expenditures cannot be monitored, and the things
that happen within it cannot be questioned or elucidated. Over the
past 20 years, approximately 2,200 soldiers have committed suicide!
There are also hundreds of suspicious deaths. Not a one of these can
ever be clarified. Roboski has still not been clarified, and those
responsible have not been able to be revealed. Because the military
is not held accountable.Afyon as well has been covered with the same
curtain of fog. A closed session is held for the motion. Why? Life
has shown us that the minutes that will come out 10 years later are
no insurance against disasters. The more you approve such motions,
the more you will witness new Roboskis, the more new Afyons will take
place, and the more innocent people will die. The way to stop these
things is not struggle, but rather negotiations. It is always struggle
against the Kurds, struggle against the Alevis, struggle against the
Armenians. The only thing you have not done to date is negotiate.
I Was in the Oslo Process
[Q] Why does the BDP remain weak vis-a-vis the PKK [Kurdistan People's
Congress, KGK] in terms of the weapons' falling silent?
[A] Does the state or the government have a project for the weapons
to fall silent? If there is no project or road map out there, what can
the BDP do in this regard? The BDP puts out a project for the weapons
to fall silent, and makes appeals every day, but the response it has
gotten is to be rejected, and to be put under pressure. 8,000 people,
ranging from politicians to lawyers, are under arrest in the prisons.
Is there any BDP left? It is the government itself here that lacks
will on the point of the weapons' being put down. Otherwise, the BDP is
prepared to offer every sort of contribution. The following must also
not be forgotten: It is a fact that there is a serious crisis of trust.
[Q] Do you really believe that the government could lay out a new
project without the weapons falling silent?
[A] There are two ways to get the guns to go silent. Either you defeat
the other side, and the weapons go silent. Or else you negotiate
and solve the problem, and then the weapons go silent. Bu in our
country, unfortunately, debates regarding the Kurdish issue only
come onto the agenda when the fighting escalates. What I call the
crisis of trust is a state of affairs that has continued ever since
the founding of the Republic. They said "come and let us sit down
together and discuss the constitution" and then they took Seyh Sait
[the leader of the 1925 Kurdish/Islamic rebellion] and hanged him. It
was the same in the incident with Seyit Riza [the leader of the 1937
revolt] in Dersim [Tunceli]; they invited him for a compromise and
then they set an ambush for him on the Erzurum road and executed him
in Elazig. During the 30-year-long period of war, the PKK withdrew to
outside the borders at the direction of [PKK leader Abdullah] Ocalan,
and a period of non-conflict was experienced until 2004. In fact,
in order to strengthen this, peace groups came from Qandil and from
Europe, at Ocalan's call, but they got heavy punishments. Also,
when the [PKK's] armed forces were leaving the country, certain
units of the state set up ambushes, and the withdrawing guerrillas
were killed. Included among those who died was the son of my elder
brother. So now, faced with such a tableau, how are you going to bri
ng about an atmosphere of trust?
[Q] On what point was the crisis of trust experienced most recently?
[A] Look: I was involved in the Oslo process that continued between
2006 and 2011. Ahmet Turk and I were always within that process. The
most important step of that process was Habur [referring to the entry
of the peace groups]. People came through Habur so that a process of
peace and a democratic solution would begin. And then what happened?
Nationalism and racism were escalated. The government backed down. And
all of them got 60-year sentences.
I was at Habur when they arrived. When I left the house, the mother
of my nephew Mufit, whom I just mentioned -she did not yet know
that her son had died, and thought he was in the mountains -spoke
to me as follows: "Oh, if only I could go as well. My Mufit could
be in the guerrilla group. If only I could see him." My eyes filled
with tears, and my heart was torn, but I couldn't say anything. With
these emotions, we went to welcome them at Habur. Kurds were there,
with the hope that peace would finally come, and that their children
would come back safe and sound. If we were to devote all of our efforts
for months, we could not get such a crowd of people together. For the
first time, not coffins, but living young people came through Habur.
Everyone was there, thinking that they were coming within the scope of
a roadmap for peace. One has to understand this correctly. There may
have been deficiencies, but there was no evil intent there, no show.
That is how they saw it from the west [of the country]: the Kurds
were staging a show. What sort of show were the Kurds supposed to make
after 50,000 deaths? But we were unable to explain ourselves clearly,
it seems.
We Learned of Plan B Afterwards
[Q] A similar sort of reaction came from the component of society that
you call the west this summer to the hugs [between BDP politicians
and PKK guerrillas] in Hakkari. Those people are also experiencing
an anxiety, a mistrust.
[A] It was the policies of Ankara, and nationalism, that brought the
west to this point. The things going on east of the Euphrates were
hidden from the west for the sake of votes, and things were explained
otherwise to people. The perceptions were distorted. Now, in order for
the anxiety and the mistrust to be eliminated, certainly we all have a
duty and a responsibility. But the real responsibility lies with the
government. Because it will be the government itself, if it indeed
has the intention for it, that will explain to the people in the west
[of Turkey] that peace is as necessary in this country as water or
food, and that a solution is vital for this country, and that thereby
will create a climate of peace. The government must not follow a dual
policy. It should not have a plan B in addition to the plan A. In the
process of the Oslo talks, there was a serious crisis of confidence.
We learned afterwards that, while the state had a plan A, it also
had a plan B.
[Q] What was plan B?
[A] Plan B was the project of annihilating the PKK, that is, that
if the PKK could be gotten rid of, then the Kurdish question would
disappear. Can this affair really be resolved by eliminating the PKK?
Later, we heard that while Oslo was underway, they continued a
four-way discussion with Iraq, Iran, and Syria on elimination. In
fact the real reason that Al-Asad came here was for these talks. If
you look at it with this logic, you cannot resolve the problem. This
problem cannot be resolved by playing tricks in order to eliminate one
another. The state finally has to abandon the games and the habits of
the Ottomans. The Kurds are no longer the old Kurds. They are the most
important political factor and force for change in the region. They
cannot fool the Kurds. Today, young people are being inculcated with
the spirit of 1071 [the Battle of Manzikert, in which the Seljuq Turks
defeated a Byzantine army and enabled large-scale Turkish migration
into Anatolia to begin] and t he goal of 2071 is being pointed to. But
the place you entered in 1071 was the geography of the Kurds. That
ancient people there opened the doors to you, and acted jointly with
you. [Seljuq Sultan] Alparslan won the victory by forming an alliance
with the Kurds. Ever since the Ottomans, and when the Republic was
founded as well, the Kurds have always acted as partners. But the
promises given to the Kurds were not kept. There were 13 [Kurdish]
revolts under the Ottomans, and 16 revolts during the Republic. And
you have not solved this problem.
[Q] From that geography, the leader of the Kurds in Iraq [Kurdistan
Regional Government President Mas'ud Barzani] came for the AKP
Congress. Did the applause of "Turkey is proud of you" that was given
when he went up to the podium not surprise you?
[A] Barzani comes and speaks in Kurdish at your congress, but when
I quote a proverb in my own parliament, it goes down in the minutes
as something said in an unknown language. And then on the other hand
you say "we have eliminated the rejection and the denial." Are the
Kurds able to have education in their own native language? Can they
express themselves in it in institutions and in the public? You go
there [to the Iraqi Kurdistan Region] with your ministers and meet
at the presidential level, you open consulates, and you establish
THY [Turkish Airlines] offices, and then you come back and tell us
"pay no attention to these things"!
[Q] The authoritative voices in the BDP say that there is no longer
any demand for a "united Kurdistan." After Iraq, and despite the
developments taking place in Syria, this demand now is on the table,
is it not?
[A] We, as the Kurds living in Turkey, have no state in our heads. We
want to be equal citizens on the level of the constitution, and to
have a say and a decision-making ability in the administration. What
the Kurds really want is for the rights that have been taken away from
them to be given constitutional and legal guarantees. We have called
this democratic autonomy; others can call it something else. As long
as we discuss it and generate a joint project. There are also Kurds,
apart from us, who have a demand for federation. I think that, among
the Kurds, a structure that would bring common rights together, and to
have a say and a decision-making ability in the administration, would
find more support. The real problem is here: There is no tolerance
for the words Kurd or Kurdistan. They invite Barzani to their own
congresses, but the Prime Minister does not mention the name of the
geographical region whose leader he has invited. They do not stand
up for the guest they have brought. They hem and haw on the issue.
[Q] You speak of a local parliament.
[A] We propose democratic autonomy not only for the Kurdish region,
but for Turkey as a whole. It is very difficult to administer all of
Turkey from Ankara. At the moment, there is a very rigidly centralized
administration. If a new administrative model can be realized in
which Ankara is reduced in size, the people take part directly in
the decision-making processes, regional assemblies are formed, and
the authority of local levels is increased, this would make the way
open for Turkey, and would solve the problems.
Are Kurds Tourists That You Will Speak With Them Through Interpreters?
[Q] Are points in the AKP's 2023 Vision Document, such as access to
public services in the native language, making [court] defence in
the native language no longer a problem, and Kurdish interpretation
services, not steps?
[A] Now they are talking of interpreting in public institutions. A
Kurd goes and, rather than dealing at first hand with the person
opposite him if it is a Kurd, will be obliged to have an interpreter.
Is there any need for such a contrary situation, and for doing things
in such a backward way? What sort of a solution approach is it to
find interpreters in public institutions for people who are unable
to receive education in their mother tongue ? Instead of finding
interpreters, give those people the right to be educated in their
native language. Are the Kurds in this country tourists that you
communicate with them via interpreters? Ever since the founding of
the Republic, the Kurds have been put off, and now they are going
to wait until 2023? With young people dying every day, Turkey does
not even have another 2,023 seconds to waste. Turkey has to make a
transition from a lack of vision, which kills, to vision, which will
enable people to live.
[Q] The government is saying that "the PKK attacks that escalated in
the summer months have let down the BDP."
[A] The government should not seek refuge behind such excuses. During
the spring months, before the fighting stepped up, our Co-Chairpersons
met with a minister of the government and said: "Come, let us generate
a solution together; otherwise the flames will spread everywhere." But
the government did not listen, and paid no attention. Actually, it is
the government itself that let the BDP down. What did the government
do during the period of cessation of action? What steps did it take?
It excluded the BDP at every opportunity, and plugged its ears to
the BDP's proposals.
New Negotiations Impossible With Current Imrali System
[Q] Has, in your view, a new process begun?
[A] I think, and hope, that in spite of everything, positive
developments could begin. Because Turkey needs this; it needs
normalization and peace. They should begin wherever they left off.
Turkish society is not against the launching of a negotiations process
in order for the bloodshed to come to an end. Everyone just wants
this bloodshed to stop. The government has to see this reality, to
approach the process not tactically but strategically, and to aim at
a final solution. In terms of Oslo, the government has to be sincere;
it should not approach things in an ambivalent way, and should not
establish a hidden agenda. Everything should be open and transparent,
and the government, as the political will, should say that it is going
to launch a new negotiations process and that it is going to stand
behind this. At the negotiating table should be not intelligence
officials but rather representatives of the political will. The
Kurdish issue is not an intelligence matter, and is not a problem
that MIT [National Intelligence Organization] can solve. This issue
is a political issue, and the interlocutor is the political authority.
[Q] Have channels of communication been opened with Ocalan?
[A] Apart from a few talks at a limited level with his family, one
cannot speak of channels of communication having been opened. The
isolation being implemented against him has been continuing for over
a year now. All of his lawyers are under arrest. [His brother] Mehmet
Ocalan goes back and forth; we see this both from his statements and
from those of government officials. But family visits are a separate
matter. The essential thing here is that the channels of dialogue
need to be opened up with Imrali again, and the way needs to be made
open for him to be able to play a role for peace. But this will not
work with the current Imrali system.
[Q] There is a question of an investigation summary being prepared
regarding some individuals in the party. What will be the result
of this?
[A] There is a great saying: "You cannot dry today's laundry with
yesterday's sunshine." I recall very well that in 1994, [then Prime
Minister Tansu] Ciller said "I have spoken with the judiciary;
finish these people off." Today as well, the Prime Minister is
saying the same thing; he says "both we and the judiciary will do
what is required." Even if you arrest all of us and take away our
parliamentary status, the tradition that we come out of us a tradition
of sacrifice. None of us have any concern for parliamentary status or
for titles. Do you have no other method on this issue than the process
that has been going on ever since 1994? If you insist on this method,
then you will have entirely closed off Ankara, and the parliament,
from the Kurds. The consequences of doing this should be considered
carefully. Such a historic mistake should not be entered into. We
see the parliament as a place for a solution. And since the people
think in this way as well, they overcame a thousand and one different
obstacles and sent their representatives to the parliament. To ignore
this will of the people would be the worst thing that could be done to
this country. We hope that this error will not be committed again. I
want to conclude with a quotation from Mevlana [medieival Persian poet
Rumi]: "We should not plant any other seeds in this field but love."
[Translated from Turkish]