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ASHOT MANUCHARYAN: BY REMOVING ALL ITS FORCES FROM THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE THE KREMLIN MADE IT CLEAR THAT IT WANTED THE RULING REGIME TO STAY INPOWER
ArmInfo's Interview with Ashot Manucharyan, member of the Karabakh
Committee, national security advisor to the first President of Armenia
by David Stepanyan
ARMINFO
Monday, April 8, 11:05
Do you think the current people's movement resemble the movement of
the late 1980s early 1990s?
In the 90s we could perfectly see many shortcomings in the system of
the USSR and in the world. We are national movement, wherein the voice
of the Karabakh Committee is the most important. We sought improvement
simultaneously raising the issue of Nagorno Karabakh. The movement
refused from the old life philosophy and chose the new one, which was
the right decision. However, we regressed from the existing living
standards. We wished our best, you know the rest. There was a public
opinion that everything Western is a direct way to civilization, a
step forward comparing to the Soviet life. He believes that everything
negative we have now is a result of the wrong choice of the people,
politicians and intellectuals based on the above stereotype. Today it
is impossible to say what would be the right choice in the early 90s.
Many parameters of changes we made then are still relevant.
What hopes do you pin with the current protesting people's movement?
I have been pinning hopes with the national movement for already 25
years. I do not rely, however, on specific persons: Raffi Hovannisian,
Levon Ter-Petrosyan and others. Over these years our people have been
in the search. They have been political in the very sense of that word
because politics is not a complex of intrigues, which our political
field has been full with for a long period of time. In this light, I
am sure that sooner or later we will achieve serious changes in
Armenia.
Are the methods and technologies of the Karabakh Committee of the late
80s and early 90s applicable to the current situation for serious
changes in Armenia?
The real power levers were not in the hands of the Movement in the
late 80s. However, real processes were managed by the Movement,
specifically, by the people who headed it. After the Movement had
achieved its goals, those very people took the power levers, while the
others went home killing the real people's power. Change of power for
me is to make Serzh Sargsyan and others obey the public will. By the
way, the Solidarity Movement in Poland adopted experience of the
Karabakh Movement. Then on the threshold of the collapse of the Soviet
Union we gathered people not in power, but with experience and
knowledge. A similar system of management is possible also now and I
am sure it will be realized. Replacing Serzh Sargsyan with Raffi
Hovannisian will change nothing in the governance system. I don't
think that the new president will be able to bring to power more
clever and experienced people than we did in the early 90s. However, a
couple of years later we saw that all those honest intellectuals
became part of the predatory system that has been operating in Armenia
till now.
Today the ruling party seems to be seriously concerned over the
upcoming election of the Yerevan mayor on May 5. May the election
catalyze public discontent in the context of the processes you have
mentioned?
I cannot say if such a scenario will be realized, but there is a
relevant potential. This will become possible, first of all, due to
the mistakes and disarray of the politicians involved in the process,
and second, due to insufficiently strong national self-government.
However, there is a huge potential for that now. I hope it will be
used.
It is impossible not to touch on the role of external factors in the
local processes in Armenia...
They traditionally play a very important part in the domestic policy
of the republic. In 1988 the Karabakh movement rose from the standard
letters writing to Moscow with a request to settle the Karabakh
conflict and suddenly KGB supported us, as it was interested in
winding up of perestroyka, as they thought that Gorbachev's
perestroyka will ruin the country. And they decided to put Gorbachev
against the fact of violence. For this reason, KGB supported certain
people from Armenia and Azerbaijan to organize bloodshed as a result
of clashes. But as a response, the KGB had a one million political
meeting in Yerevan, where the people said directly that violence
against civilians was inadmissible. After that the KGB lost and we
were controlling the situation. Today everything that is happening in
Armenia, including rising of the people, is mostly the result of
actions of external forces.
The fight for one of the most important geo-political points -
Armenia, has been developing first of all between Russia and
Anglo-Saxondom, in which Europe, Iran and China take part. As for the
people's movement, it is also a part of the initiative of external
forces. The ruling elite of Armenia is chiefly oriented to the West,
and Moscow is very much irritated for that. For this reason, as of
August 2012, Moscow had a ready decision to sweep away the entire
ruling Armenian elite and replace it with the pro-Russian one, in the
person of Prosperous Armenia Party, Armenian National Congress, ARF
Dashnaktiutyun, etc. As a result, the West initiated certain actions
after which Yerevan had to present to Moscow facts according to which
Russia's interests in Armenia will be also observed by the incumbent
power. I think that the arguments were telling, as Moscow refused its
intentions. By removing all of its forces from the presidential race
the Kremlin made it clear that it wanted the ruling regime to stay in
power.
In other words, was the decision that Prosperous Armenia, the Armenian
National Congress and the ARFD would not run in the Feb 18
presidential race adopted in Moscow?
Certainly, it was. Had the Russians expressed support for Prosperous
Armenia, it would have certainly run but they just showed the party
where it belonged and it had nothing left but to agree. Armenia is
neither the first nor the last country that is ruled from outside. In
fact, there is no sovereignty in the world. Similar things were once
going on in Georgia, where the local authorities and opposition were
from one and the same box. They pretended that they were fighting with
one another, but that fight was having no impact on the country's
policy. In Armenia the Russians have committed a big mistake: they
have removed their 'opposition' from the political arena just because
they have believed the promises of the local regime. This proves the
presence of global corruption in Russia. Raffi Hovannisian is open
about his plans to integrate Armenia into NATO and the European Union.
This will be a real disaster. But the West could not help making use
of Russia's blunder and turning things into its own advantage.
Has the pro-Western Armenian elite become pro-Russian now?
I wouldn't say it has. It has just declared itself pro-Russian. Any
power in Armenia is neither pro-Western nor pro-Russian. It is
pro-money and aims to do one thing - to reserve the right to rob with
impunity. Today this right is provided first of all by the West. At
the moment the State Plan is in Washington, therefore, they make their
way to Washington. According to the results of the latest public
opinion poll, the political elite in Armenia is by 80% pro-Western,
and the people are by 80% pro-Russian. It turns out that the West acts
very effectively in Armenia. They have few cards in their hands but
they play them brilliantly. As for Russia, it has a big truncheon;
therefore, it is necessary to reckon with it. This is why the first
thing whispered to any pro-Western politician in Armenia is the need
to come to an agreement and to build bridges with Russia. Over the
past 25 years the biggest anti-Armenian and anti-Russian sabotage in
Armenia was the project of cession of the Meghri corridor. And
suddenly the "master" of that project turned into the first
pro-Russian politician of Armenia. Therefore, it is more than obvious
that the level of corruptness of the Russian political leadership is
quite high, because if Armenia had ceded Meghri, it would have faced
the prospect of ceasing its existence, and Russia would have suffered
big geopolitical losses.
What measures should be taken to prevent the current people's movement
from being used by the forces you have mentioned?
Foreign forces may take advantage of the current people's movement in
Armenia. This threat has always existed. And today everything should
be done to prevent this scenario. At present people understand most of
the things they did not many years ago, though this may be not enough
for the people to prevent the foreign forces from using them.
From: Emil Lazarian | Ararat NewsPress
ArmInfo's Interview with Ashot Manucharyan, member of the Karabakh
Committee, national security advisor to the first President of Armenia
by David Stepanyan
ARMINFO
Monday, April 8, 11:05
Do you think the current people's movement resemble the movement of
the late 1980s early 1990s?
In the 90s we could perfectly see many shortcomings in the system of
the USSR and in the world. We are national movement, wherein the voice
of the Karabakh Committee is the most important. We sought improvement
simultaneously raising the issue of Nagorno Karabakh. The movement
refused from the old life philosophy and chose the new one, which was
the right decision. However, we regressed from the existing living
standards. We wished our best, you know the rest. There was a public
opinion that everything Western is a direct way to civilization, a
step forward comparing to the Soviet life. He believes that everything
negative we have now is a result of the wrong choice of the people,
politicians and intellectuals based on the above stereotype. Today it
is impossible to say what would be the right choice in the early 90s.
Many parameters of changes we made then are still relevant.
What hopes do you pin with the current protesting people's movement?
I have been pinning hopes with the national movement for already 25
years. I do not rely, however, on specific persons: Raffi Hovannisian,
Levon Ter-Petrosyan and others. Over these years our people have been
in the search. They have been political in the very sense of that word
because politics is not a complex of intrigues, which our political
field has been full with for a long period of time. In this light, I
am sure that sooner or later we will achieve serious changes in
Armenia.
Are the methods and technologies of the Karabakh Committee of the late
80s and early 90s applicable to the current situation for serious
changes in Armenia?
The real power levers were not in the hands of the Movement in the
late 80s. However, real processes were managed by the Movement,
specifically, by the people who headed it. After the Movement had
achieved its goals, those very people took the power levers, while the
others went home killing the real people's power. Change of power for
me is to make Serzh Sargsyan and others obey the public will. By the
way, the Solidarity Movement in Poland adopted experience of the
Karabakh Movement. Then on the threshold of the collapse of the Soviet
Union we gathered people not in power, but with experience and
knowledge. A similar system of management is possible also now and I
am sure it will be realized. Replacing Serzh Sargsyan with Raffi
Hovannisian will change nothing in the governance system. I don't
think that the new president will be able to bring to power more
clever and experienced people than we did in the early 90s. However, a
couple of years later we saw that all those honest intellectuals
became part of the predatory system that has been operating in Armenia
till now.
Today the ruling party seems to be seriously concerned over the
upcoming election of the Yerevan mayor on May 5. May the election
catalyze public discontent in the context of the processes you have
mentioned?
I cannot say if such a scenario will be realized, but there is a
relevant potential. This will become possible, first of all, due to
the mistakes and disarray of the politicians involved in the process,
and second, due to insufficiently strong national self-government.
However, there is a huge potential for that now. I hope it will be
used.
It is impossible not to touch on the role of external factors in the
local processes in Armenia...
They traditionally play a very important part in the domestic policy
of the republic. In 1988 the Karabakh movement rose from the standard
letters writing to Moscow with a request to settle the Karabakh
conflict and suddenly KGB supported us, as it was interested in
winding up of perestroyka, as they thought that Gorbachev's
perestroyka will ruin the country. And they decided to put Gorbachev
against the fact of violence. For this reason, KGB supported certain
people from Armenia and Azerbaijan to organize bloodshed as a result
of clashes. But as a response, the KGB had a one million political
meeting in Yerevan, where the people said directly that violence
against civilians was inadmissible. After that the KGB lost and we
were controlling the situation. Today everything that is happening in
Armenia, including rising of the people, is mostly the result of
actions of external forces.
The fight for one of the most important geo-political points -
Armenia, has been developing first of all between Russia and
Anglo-Saxondom, in which Europe, Iran and China take part. As for the
people's movement, it is also a part of the initiative of external
forces. The ruling elite of Armenia is chiefly oriented to the West,
and Moscow is very much irritated for that. For this reason, as of
August 2012, Moscow had a ready decision to sweep away the entire
ruling Armenian elite and replace it with the pro-Russian one, in the
person of Prosperous Armenia Party, Armenian National Congress, ARF
Dashnaktiutyun, etc. As a result, the West initiated certain actions
after which Yerevan had to present to Moscow facts according to which
Russia's interests in Armenia will be also observed by the incumbent
power. I think that the arguments were telling, as Moscow refused its
intentions. By removing all of its forces from the presidential race
the Kremlin made it clear that it wanted the ruling regime to stay in
power.
In other words, was the decision that Prosperous Armenia, the Armenian
National Congress and the ARFD would not run in the Feb 18
presidential race adopted in Moscow?
Certainly, it was. Had the Russians expressed support for Prosperous
Armenia, it would have certainly run but they just showed the party
where it belonged and it had nothing left but to agree. Armenia is
neither the first nor the last country that is ruled from outside. In
fact, there is no sovereignty in the world. Similar things were once
going on in Georgia, where the local authorities and opposition were
from one and the same box. They pretended that they were fighting with
one another, but that fight was having no impact on the country's
policy. In Armenia the Russians have committed a big mistake: they
have removed their 'opposition' from the political arena just because
they have believed the promises of the local regime. This proves the
presence of global corruption in Russia. Raffi Hovannisian is open
about his plans to integrate Armenia into NATO and the European Union.
This will be a real disaster. But the West could not help making use
of Russia's blunder and turning things into its own advantage.
Has the pro-Western Armenian elite become pro-Russian now?
I wouldn't say it has. It has just declared itself pro-Russian. Any
power in Armenia is neither pro-Western nor pro-Russian. It is
pro-money and aims to do one thing - to reserve the right to rob with
impunity. Today this right is provided first of all by the West. At
the moment the State Plan is in Washington, therefore, they make their
way to Washington. According to the results of the latest public
opinion poll, the political elite in Armenia is by 80% pro-Western,
and the people are by 80% pro-Russian. It turns out that the West acts
very effectively in Armenia. They have few cards in their hands but
they play them brilliantly. As for Russia, it has a big truncheon;
therefore, it is necessary to reckon with it. This is why the first
thing whispered to any pro-Western politician in Armenia is the need
to come to an agreement and to build bridges with Russia. Over the
past 25 years the biggest anti-Armenian and anti-Russian sabotage in
Armenia was the project of cession of the Meghri corridor. And
suddenly the "master" of that project turned into the first
pro-Russian politician of Armenia. Therefore, it is more than obvious
that the level of corruptness of the Russian political leadership is
quite high, because if Armenia had ceded Meghri, it would have faced
the prospect of ceasing its existence, and Russia would have suffered
big geopolitical losses.
What measures should be taken to prevent the current people's movement
from being used by the forces you have mentioned?
Foreign forces may take advantage of the current people's movement in
Armenia. This threat has always existed. And today everything should
be done to prevent this scenario. At present people understand most of
the things they did not many years ago, though this may be not enough
for the people to prevent the foreign forces from using them.
From: Emil Lazarian | Ararat NewsPress