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Neue Zuercher Zeitung website [in German], Zurich
14 Oct 13 p 5
A Murderer Does Become Innocent by Handing Over His Gun
Interview with Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu by Martin
Woker and Cyrill Stieger
Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu complains about the blockade
of the UN Security Council on the Syria crisis. He urgently warns
against a failure of the Syria conference scheduled to take place in
Geneva.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Currently, Turkey accommodates more than half
a million refugees from Syria. How can you cope with this challenge?
[Davutoglu] The humanitarian dimension of the Syria crisis is not
sufficiently taken into account internationally. It is a huge human
tragedy. The regressive policy of [Syrian leader] Al-Asad's regime has
claimed 120,000 casualties so far; two million people have fled to
neighbouring countries. Since the beginning of the crisis, our country
has pursued an open-door policy to the refuges. This corresponds to
our tradition. So far, we have spent about USD 2 billion to support
the refugees. About 200,000 of them are in camps, some 350,000 live in
different cities in Turkey. This is a great burden on our schools,
hospitals, and the entire infrastructure. We do not have control over
the movements of the refugees.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Many aid organizations are engaged in Turkey.
But the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) is not among
them. Why?
[Davutoglu] We are very grateful for every help by international
organizations. Their expenditures amount to USD 135 million. The aid
provided in Syria itself, however, is much more important. The people
there have no food and shelter. The Red Cross and the Red Crescent
Movement should be given unrestricted access to all people in need in
Syria.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] In other words, it would be better for the
ICRC not to engage on Turkish territory?
[Davutoglu] I can only say that if refugees need help, we are open to
that. We are cooperative in each and every case. Anyone who wants to
engage in Turkey to help Syrian refugees can do so anytime. Everyone
is welcome.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Will you attend the Syria conference that is
scheduled to take place in Geneva in November?
[Davutoglu] Of course. A conference without our participation would be
meaningless. Turkey wants a quick and fair solution to the Syria
crisis.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Even if Al-Asad were to attend?
[Davutoglu] The most important negotiating partner is the Syrian
people. I do not think that they would accept Al-Asad's participation.
The Friends of Syria group, in which Turkey is a partner, will decide
about the details of participation. We have adopted a joint position
on the crimes committed by the Al-Asad regime. A total of 114
countries have agreed. This regime has used chemical weapons. Let me
use the following metaphor: a murderer does not become innocent by
handing over his gun. The regime must be called to account for that.
After the Bosnia war, the Bosnian people were willing to agree to a
deal in which war criminals also were a partner. But in the talks in
Geneva last year, it became clear: people of the regime with blood on
their hands are excluded from the talks.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Would the attendance of Foreign Minister
Al-Muallim be acceptable for you?
[Davutoglu] I do not want to mention any names. This is for the Syrian
people to decide, the Syrian National Coalition and the opposition in
general. Whatever they decide, we will support the decision.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] The opposition against Al-Asad is fragmented.
How would you describe the Islamist Al-Nusra front? As a radical or a
terrorist group?
[Davutoglu] Let me be quite clear: Turkey does not support terrorist
groups, anywhere in the world. Nor does Turkey support radical forces.
The Al-Asad regime bears the main responsibility for the fact that
radical forces have emerged in Syria, not the other way round. The
international community is also partially responsible, in particular,
the UN Security Council, which has been unable so far to reach
agreement on a resolution. In this vacuum, such groups could emerge.
These radical groups did not exist two years ago. A year ago, there
were a few hundred fighters. This year, there are already several
thousands. If we want to prevent the radicalization, we should
seriously look for a solution. In the National Coalition, all
movements are represented. It is necessary to strengthen this
Coalition. It should fill the dangerous vacuum.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Currently, the opposite is happening. The
jihadists are getting stronger, and the regime has overcome its
weakness.
[Davutoglu] This is because of the international community's
incapacity to solve the crisis. This worries us. Two hardliner groups
are gaining importance: one in Damascus and the other one in the
battle field. If we are unable to find a fair solution in the upcoming
negotiations in Geneva, the security risk will increase, not only in
the region, but throughout the world. In the year 2011, over 10
months, in close contact with Bashar al-Asad, we tried to convince
him. However, at that time, hardly anyone was interested in the Syria
conflict. We warned of an escalation. But what happened? The UN
Security Council was not in a position to act. All those who have been
inactive so far deserve to be criticized.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Is it not necessary to criticize those who
finance radical forces?
[Davutoglu] Certainly. Because they, directly or indirectly, support
the Syrian regime. We should not forget one thing: the phenomenon of
[the terrorist network] Al-Qa'idah in Syria is something new.
Previously, the Syrian people patiently waited for an appropriate
international response. It is easy today to complain about the
radicalization.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Meanwhile, the jihadists operating in Syria
have become a problem also for Turkey. Why do you not urge the
financial supporters in the Gulf region, in Saudi Arabia and Qatar, to
stop that?
[Davutoglu] One should not get the impression that there is such a
support. This is just propaganda by the Al-Asad regime. People who
support the legitimate, moderate opposition, which only consists of
Syrians, should not be criticized for doing so. We do not know where
the support for the other forces comes from. But we do know that,
today, fighters operate in Syria who have escaped from the Abu Ghraib
prison in Iraq.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Immediately after the overthrow of [Egyptian]
Islamist President Mursi, Gulf monarchies promised much money to the
generals in Egypt. Do you have bitter feelings towards some Gulf
monarchs? After all, as regards the Syria conflict, you are in the
same boat with them.
[Davutoglu] We are not all in the same boat; 114 countries are in the
same boat. This could be seen from the Syria resolutions by the UN
Security Council, which were adopted by the large majority of the
countries. All these countries support the Syrian opposition and the
Syrian people against oppression.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] What is your position on the Arab Spring?
[Davutoglu] We have a clear principle: in the "Arab Spring" countries,
we support the legitimate aspirations of the society, anywhere, and
not individual groups. In Egypt, we had good relations with Mursi, the
first president in the history of the country who was elected by the
people in a fair election. There must not be two democratic standards,
one for Europe, and another one for other continents. If a government
makes mistakes, it is for the people, not the street or the military,
to make a decision. Egypt is the most important country in the process
of democratization. The developments there have an influence on the
entire region. A success in Egypt is more important than a success in
our region. The successful establishment of a democratic order in
Egypt will cause a positive domino effect; if the process of
democratization fails in Egypt, there will be a negative domino
effect.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Why did Turkey not try to mediate in Egypt?
[Davutoglu] Before the coup, we made an attempt, together with some
other countries. I conducted many telephone calls in the last 48 hours
before Mursi's overthrow. And even in the time before that, we did a
lot. However, in order for a mediation to be successful, it takes at
least two sides, and it is necessary to have access to many
protagonists. One cannot simply exclude Mursi from the process of
mediation.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Is Egypt not an example of the failure of
your "zero-problem" policy with the countries in the region?
[Davutoglu] No. The "zero-problem policy" is a fundamental programme.
We do not only have one or two neighbours. In addition, for the
solution of problems we need a partner on the other side. In the past
10 years, we have established good relations, for example, with
Ukraine and Greece. We abolished the visa regime with Russia. The only
region where there is no liberalization is the European Union. We have
visa-free travel with countries that were our enemies in the Cold War,
but not with our then allies. To visit Georgia, it is enough travel on
an ID card. There are problems with Syria, this is true. If we did not
have difficulties with Al-Asad, we would have hundreds of problems
with the Syrian people. As far as Egypt is concerned, we cannot
legitimize a coup d'etat. The problem does not lie with us, but with
the other side. The fact that Turkey's trade with the neighbouring
countries increased from 8 per cent in the year 2002 to 32 per cent
today alone shows the success of the "zero-problem policy."
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] And what about Armenia and Cyprus?
[Davutoglu] Today, relations with Armenia are better than 10 years
ago. We wish they would be better. With the Greek-Cypriot
administration, too, we would like to have better relations. However,
this is not our fault. In the year 2004, we agreed to the plan of then
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan to overcome the division of Cyprus.
But the Greek-Cypriots rejected it. With Armenia, too, we signed a
protocol in 2009. But the Armenian Constitutional Court decided to
insist on the occupation of Azerbaijani territories.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] There are plans to erect an Armenia memorial
in front of the UN building in Geneva. What is your opinion about
that?
[Davutoglu] At my visit to Switzerland on Thursday [11 October], I
discussed this issue with Federal Councillor [Swiss Foreign Minister]
Didier Burkhalter. He is aware that this is a sensitive issue. The
talks continue, and I do hope that we will reach a mutual agreement. A
unilateral step on this matter would certainly not contribute to an
improvement of Turkish-Armenian relations.
[Translated from German]
14 Oct 13 p 5
A Murderer Does Become Innocent by Handing Over His Gun
Interview with Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu by Martin
Woker and Cyrill Stieger
Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu complains about the blockade
of the UN Security Council on the Syria crisis. He urgently warns
against a failure of the Syria conference scheduled to take place in
Geneva.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Currently, Turkey accommodates more than half
a million refugees from Syria. How can you cope with this challenge?
[Davutoglu] The humanitarian dimension of the Syria crisis is not
sufficiently taken into account internationally. It is a huge human
tragedy. The regressive policy of [Syrian leader] Al-Asad's regime has
claimed 120,000 casualties so far; two million people have fled to
neighbouring countries. Since the beginning of the crisis, our country
has pursued an open-door policy to the refuges. This corresponds to
our tradition. So far, we have spent about USD 2 billion to support
the refugees. About 200,000 of them are in camps, some 350,000 live in
different cities in Turkey. This is a great burden on our schools,
hospitals, and the entire infrastructure. We do not have control over
the movements of the refugees.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Many aid organizations are engaged in Turkey.
But the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) is not among
them. Why?
[Davutoglu] We are very grateful for every help by international
organizations. Their expenditures amount to USD 135 million. The aid
provided in Syria itself, however, is much more important. The people
there have no food and shelter. The Red Cross and the Red Crescent
Movement should be given unrestricted access to all people in need in
Syria.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] In other words, it would be better for the
ICRC not to engage on Turkish territory?
[Davutoglu] I can only say that if refugees need help, we are open to
that. We are cooperative in each and every case. Anyone who wants to
engage in Turkey to help Syrian refugees can do so anytime. Everyone
is welcome.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Will you attend the Syria conference that is
scheduled to take place in Geneva in November?
[Davutoglu] Of course. A conference without our participation would be
meaningless. Turkey wants a quick and fair solution to the Syria
crisis.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Even if Al-Asad were to attend?
[Davutoglu] The most important negotiating partner is the Syrian
people. I do not think that they would accept Al-Asad's participation.
The Friends of Syria group, in which Turkey is a partner, will decide
about the details of participation. We have adopted a joint position
on the crimes committed by the Al-Asad regime. A total of 114
countries have agreed. This regime has used chemical weapons. Let me
use the following metaphor: a murderer does not become innocent by
handing over his gun. The regime must be called to account for that.
After the Bosnia war, the Bosnian people were willing to agree to a
deal in which war criminals also were a partner. But in the talks in
Geneva last year, it became clear: people of the regime with blood on
their hands are excluded from the talks.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Would the attendance of Foreign Minister
Al-Muallim be acceptable for you?
[Davutoglu] I do not want to mention any names. This is for the Syrian
people to decide, the Syrian National Coalition and the opposition in
general. Whatever they decide, we will support the decision.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] The opposition against Al-Asad is fragmented.
How would you describe the Islamist Al-Nusra front? As a radical or a
terrorist group?
[Davutoglu] Let me be quite clear: Turkey does not support terrorist
groups, anywhere in the world. Nor does Turkey support radical forces.
The Al-Asad regime bears the main responsibility for the fact that
radical forces have emerged in Syria, not the other way round. The
international community is also partially responsible, in particular,
the UN Security Council, which has been unable so far to reach
agreement on a resolution. In this vacuum, such groups could emerge.
These radical groups did not exist two years ago. A year ago, there
were a few hundred fighters. This year, there are already several
thousands. If we want to prevent the radicalization, we should
seriously look for a solution. In the National Coalition, all
movements are represented. It is necessary to strengthen this
Coalition. It should fill the dangerous vacuum.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Currently, the opposite is happening. The
jihadists are getting stronger, and the regime has overcome its
weakness.
[Davutoglu] This is because of the international community's
incapacity to solve the crisis. This worries us. Two hardliner groups
are gaining importance: one in Damascus and the other one in the
battle field. If we are unable to find a fair solution in the upcoming
negotiations in Geneva, the security risk will increase, not only in
the region, but throughout the world. In the year 2011, over 10
months, in close contact with Bashar al-Asad, we tried to convince
him. However, at that time, hardly anyone was interested in the Syria
conflict. We warned of an escalation. But what happened? The UN
Security Council was not in a position to act. All those who have been
inactive so far deserve to be criticized.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Is it not necessary to criticize those who
finance radical forces?
[Davutoglu] Certainly. Because they, directly or indirectly, support
the Syrian regime. We should not forget one thing: the phenomenon of
[the terrorist network] Al-Qa'idah in Syria is something new.
Previously, the Syrian people patiently waited for an appropriate
international response. It is easy today to complain about the
radicalization.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Meanwhile, the jihadists operating in Syria
have become a problem also for Turkey. Why do you not urge the
financial supporters in the Gulf region, in Saudi Arabia and Qatar, to
stop that?
[Davutoglu] One should not get the impression that there is such a
support. This is just propaganda by the Al-Asad regime. People who
support the legitimate, moderate opposition, which only consists of
Syrians, should not be criticized for doing so. We do not know where
the support for the other forces comes from. But we do know that,
today, fighters operate in Syria who have escaped from the Abu Ghraib
prison in Iraq.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Immediately after the overthrow of [Egyptian]
Islamist President Mursi, Gulf monarchies promised much money to the
generals in Egypt. Do you have bitter feelings towards some Gulf
monarchs? After all, as regards the Syria conflict, you are in the
same boat with them.
[Davutoglu] We are not all in the same boat; 114 countries are in the
same boat. This could be seen from the Syria resolutions by the UN
Security Council, which were adopted by the large majority of the
countries. All these countries support the Syrian opposition and the
Syrian people against oppression.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] What is your position on the Arab Spring?
[Davutoglu] We have a clear principle: in the "Arab Spring" countries,
we support the legitimate aspirations of the society, anywhere, and
not individual groups. In Egypt, we had good relations with Mursi, the
first president in the history of the country who was elected by the
people in a fair election. There must not be two democratic standards,
one for Europe, and another one for other continents. If a government
makes mistakes, it is for the people, not the street or the military,
to make a decision. Egypt is the most important country in the process
of democratization. The developments there have an influence on the
entire region. A success in Egypt is more important than a success in
our region. The successful establishment of a democratic order in
Egypt will cause a positive domino effect; if the process of
democratization fails in Egypt, there will be a negative domino
effect.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Why did Turkey not try to mediate in Egypt?
[Davutoglu] Before the coup, we made an attempt, together with some
other countries. I conducted many telephone calls in the last 48 hours
before Mursi's overthrow. And even in the time before that, we did a
lot. However, in order for a mediation to be successful, it takes at
least two sides, and it is necessary to have access to many
protagonists. One cannot simply exclude Mursi from the process of
mediation.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] Is Egypt not an example of the failure of
your "zero-problem" policy with the countries in the region?
[Davutoglu] No. The "zero-problem policy" is a fundamental programme.
We do not only have one or two neighbours. In addition, for the
solution of problems we need a partner on the other side. In the past
10 years, we have established good relations, for example, with
Ukraine and Greece. We abolished the visa regime with Russia. The only
region where there is no liberalization is the European Union. We have
visa-free travel with countries that were our enemies in the Cold War,
but not with our then allies. To visit Georgia, it is enough travel on
an ID card. There are problems with Syria, this is true. If we did not
have difficulties with Al-Asad, we would have hundreds of problems
with the Syrian people. As far as Egypt is concerned, we cannot
legitimize a coup d'etat. The problem does not lie with us, but with
the other side. The fact that Turkey's trade with the neighbouring
countries increased from 8 per cent in the year 2002 to 32 per cent
today alone shows the success of the "zero-problem policy."
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] And what about Armenia and Cyprus?
[Davutoglu] Today, relations with Armenia are better than 10 years
ago. We wish they would be better. With the Greek-Cypriot
administration, too, we would like to have better relations. However,
this is not our fault. In the year 2004, we agreed to the plan of then
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan to overcome the division of Cyprus.
But the Greek-Cypriots rejected it. With Armenia, too, we signed a
protocol in 2009. But the Armenian Constitutional Court decided to
insist on the occupation of Azerbaijani territories.
[Neue Zuercher Zeitung] There are plans to erect an Armenia memorial
in front of the UN building in Geneva. What is your opinion about
that?
[Davutoglu] At my visit to Switzerland on Thursday [11 October], I
discussed this issue with Federal Councillor [Swiss Foreign Minister]
Didier Burkhalter. He is aware that this is a sensitive issue. The
talks continue, and I do hope that we will reach a mutual agreement. A
unilateral step on this matter would certainly not contribute to an
improvement of Turkish-Armenian relations.
[Translated from German]