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BIAnet.org, Turkey
April 25 2014
`We Used to Listen About the Genocide Like a Tale'
bianet interviewed Agos newspaper writer Pakrat Estukyan on the
stories of his genocide survivor grandparents and denial politics.
by Nilay Vardar
His pen name is Pakrat Estukyan even though his identity card says his
surname is EstukoÄ?lu. His original name Estukyan became EstukoÄ?lu when
surname law forbid using `yan' at the end of Armenian surnames. But he
uses Estukyan as his pseudonym to emphasize `how Armenian he is'.
Estukyan was born in 1953 in Rumelihisari, Istanbul. During his
childhood years, he lived in Taksim Feridiye Street, a street where
Armenians mostly live in. He received his education from Esayan,
Mıhitaryan and Getronagan Armenian schools. During his teenager years,
him and his friends started Sayat Nova chorus. His passion of music
crossed his path with KardeÅ? Türküler.
He worked as a laboratory technician and wrote articles for Agos
newspaper, after Hrant Dink's murder, and he started to work at Agos's
Armenian-language desk.
He wrote Armenian Hay Stories and was Å?iÅ?li's municipal assembly
candidate of People's Democratic Party (HDP).
bianet talked to Estukyan on his genocide survivor grandmothers and
grandfathers, his music, his `obligatory' political adventure at HDP
and the continuing denial policy before the arrival of 99th
anniversary of Armenian genocide.
`No such thing as hometown"
You're from Ä°stanbul, what about your parents?
Except my parents, all of my family came to Ä°stanbul after 1915. All
of these people lost touch with their relatives and their hometowns.
Both my parents don't have any uncles or aunts. From all those crowded
families, only one member was left, so they married each other and
started up a life in Ä°stanbul.
Where are your grandmothers and grandfathers from?
My father's father is from Ezbider village of SuÅ?ehir, Sivas
province. The name of the village is Akıncılar now. My grandfather was
working in Ortaköy bakery to earn money during war years. They took
him under military service after that. While he was at the war in Å?am,
Englishmen took him hostage and made him work at a hospital over
there. After the treaty, he went back to his hometown, his aim was to
go back home, but he had no idea about neither the massacre and nor
1915.
When he arrives in HaydarpaÅ?a, he sees a tent town, lots of people
speaking Armenian. My grandfather wants to learn who those people are,
what they are doing there. He runs into his brother-in-law there.
`I would like to go back to my hometown' he tells him.
`No, you won't. You don't have a hometown anymore. You don't have a
wife or a daughter. They all died.'
So my grandfather stays in Ä°stanbul. He meets his second wife, my
grandmother. My grandmother was exiled from Erbaa, Tokat province. She
used to tell about 1915 so vividly.
"Women from Niksar saved my grandmother"
How?
She described it like this; `One day, municipal forces arrived. They
gathered all of Erbaa's Armenian men in a parcel covered with prickly
wires. My mother sent them food. My brother said they don't want it,
and sent me back. I cried on the way back to our house. That was the
last time I saw them.'
They made them walk until the outside of Erbaa and executed all of
them. Immediately afterwards, they went back to Armenian houses and
told women to take whatever they can, because they were going to be
exiled. Then, just like that, women walked away from Erbaa, crying.
But, they were only able to go to Niksar.
`Around that time, Topal Osman's gang came to Niksar, and said: `No
one's going anywhere, take all of them to the baths.' When we heard
this, we imagined what's coming next for us. They were going to burn
us in the baths. They stuffed us into the baths. When Niksar women
heard about this they immediately came there. They tried to save as
much children as they could, but they saved girls mostly. They also
saved me, took me to a Muslim family, I stayed there for a while. They
made my name Emine.'
She used to describe everything like this.
How long did she stay with the family?
She got sick with typhus, her head went bald. They took really good
care of her. After that, an Armenian woman trying to save Armenian
girls from Muslim families brought my grandmother to Ä°stanbul and she
married my grandfather.
What happened to that family from Niksar?
My grandparents were in touch with them all the time. We never lost
touch and I met with their grandchildren.
"My grandfather jumped off the ship"
What about your mother's family?
My mother's father is from Erzincan, Kemah. He was a tinsmith but he
also went back and forth to Russia as a worker. My mother's mother is
from Å?ebinkarahisar.
My grandmother was at the orphanage after 1915; they met and got
married there. They settled in Trabzon. My grandfather was sent to
Çanakkale in 1921 as a soldier and my grandmother gave birth to my
mother at that time. After my mother was born, an instruction came to
clear Trabzon from all Armenians and Greeks. My mother was in her
bundle, she wasn't even 40 days old yet.
What did they do?
My grandmother comes to Ä°stanbul along with her baby on her lap on the
famous ship called Gülcemal. At that time, the church was setting up
refugee camps for Armenians who came from Anatolia. Camps were in
Samatya, HaydarpaÅ?a and Ortaköy. My mother arrives to the one in
Samatya.
My grandfather, released from the military forces, sees that Trabzon
is being cleared out, and goes to Ä°stanbul on that ship. But, they
don't let the ship to stop in Ä°stanbul, they say there are lots of
Armenians and Greeks in Ä°stanbul now, ships are not going to stop
there anymore, and they're going to Greece directly.
But the ship stops anyways to get coals. When people hear that the
ship arrived from Trabzon they run to the port and try to look for
their relatives with boats.
My grandmother also goes there but she wasn't able to find my
grandmother and goes back to camp. She sees my grandfather drenched as
she arrives to camp. Even though he didn't know how to swim, he jumped
out of the ship to escape from going to Greece. Boatmen took him to
the camp. This is the image; a movie would come out of these stories¦
So, this is how our Ä°stanbul adventure starts.
`We Used to Listen About the Genocide Like a Tale'
How did your parents, second generation of genocide, build a life
here? Their memories must have been pretty fresh.
Memories were fresh but to us everything sounded like a tale.
Sometimes, my grandparents used to sit and talk about old days. We
used to listen to them as if everything was a distant tale; we were
never able to understand the seriousness of the situation.
We were aware that it was a major trauma but in those days'
terminology, they didn't use genocide, they used to call it slaughter
and exile. There weren't any political messages under that. They went
through some terrible incidents. That's how they saw it.
We were lucky because these things were spoken in our houses. In many
houses, grandparents never talk about these things to protect their
children. As we were growing up, we started to question everything,
made them talk about it and never took those things out of our minds
ever since.
How did your path cross with Agos?
I'm in Agos since the day it was created. Hrant wanted me to write
articles from time to time. After he was murdered, I started to work
in the newspaper full time.
What kind of a change did Hrant Dink's murder create?
It was a very serious change. Because when Hrant was murdered, unlike
the courts that weren't able to give a decision in 7 years, public of
Turkey gave their decision in 10 minutes. Everyone knew who murdered
Hrant. Public of Turkey saw the big picture, hiding behind Ogün Samast
and others. They saw it, and they didn't like it at all. Over 200
thousand people walked that day. There were a few Armenians in them,
including the secret Armenians.
"No Armenians at April 24 Commemoration"
Why were there few Armenians?
While we were listening about the genocide, we knew so well that we
can't talk about it in the street. They didn't teach us that, we
internalized it. No one cared anyways. What are you going to tell who?
`My grandfather went through this and that.' It doesn't matter.
We are afraid and we only have few people, it means nothing. Our fear
prevents us to create any kind of awareness. We don't have the nerves
or the bravery to create an awareness, we will just shut up and hush.
There are April 24 anniversaries being done at Taksim Square for four
years. About 500-1000 people go there every year. We don't have that
much people. It looks like Armenians are still watching everything
behind their curtains.
`I want my gradpa's name Agop"
What about non-Armenians?
What changed now is: There are many books published on the Armenian
issue. Lots of memory books, serious examination books, academicians'
researches. People stop and think about their country from a different
point of view.
I'm not talking about Armenians, I'm talking about non-Armenians. They
look at the books and see what happened in their hometown before. They
would like to know the details. The situation wasn't like this before.
No one asked questions in Turkey before.
And when they started to ask¦
People ask their own grandparents. They want them to tell their own
stories, what they know about those times. Armenians' presences in the
families are talked about now. They think: `My grandmother is
originally an Armenian. Doesn't she have any sisters or brothers;
doesn't she have any relatives alive?' People go after these things.
Some people say they are Armenian from both sides. They understand
that Armenians married each other to reserve their genes. They're
saying my name is Mustafa, why should I be a Mustafa? My grandfather's
name was Agop, so I would like my name to be Agop too. He goes to the
patriarchate in Kumkapı, but no one seems sincere, they don't
understand why he came.
Why?
The church is conservative and afraid. If they accept one person,
they're scared more people will come to them. And then, Akit newspaper
will put on a headline saying Patriarchate is being missionary and
changing Muslims to Christianity. They would be targeted. They're
afraid they can't deal with all these things.
"Any nation could commit genocide at the right climate'
You said people changed, but what about the official statements?
There is still a denial policy going on, and since it doesn't have any
scientific grounds, Prime Minister ErdoÄ?an expresses it like this: `My
ancestors wouldn't have committed genocide, Muslims don't commit
genocide, Turkish soldiers don't rape.'
We know that Turkish people commit genocide as well as Germans;
Armenians would have too, if they thought it was necessary. We can't
restrict this to nations. This is a crime against humanity and if the
appropriate grounds are set, any nation could be a part of it. All
societies have this potential.
In Turkey, the appropriate grounds were set in the year of 1915. One
of my friends told me: `I have such grandfathers, they cut 6 Armenians
and looking for the 7th one to go to heaven.' They were able to inject
these ideas to people. For example, people in Syria are ready to cut
Alewites and Christians.
Which effects of the genocide is still painful for Armenians?
The most obvious pain for Armenians is denial. In a way, denial means
pursuing the genocide. There is also a deeper pain, loss of homeland.
In the history of Armenians, you can see countless number of tyrannies
like this. Armenia had been invaded by various powerful countries
before, and every time, there were many massive slaughters and exiles.
But Armenians had never lost their homeland before.
2015 is coming up¦ What do you think about it?
2015 is a date only, we are going to live it, and it is going to pass.
It's not a magical wand. What's important is to create a change in
people's minds in Turkey. They need to reconsider their perception.
If we learn how to do empathy, Turkey will be a more livable country,
and we will be in peace with the world. (NV/ENÃ`/BM)
http://www.bianet.org/english/minorities/155222-we-used-to-listen-about-the-genocide-like-a-tale
From: A. Papazian
April 25 2014
`We Used to Listen About the Genocide Like a Tale'
bianet interviewed Agos newspaper writer Pakrat Estukyan on the
stories of his genocide survivor grandparents and denial politics.
by Nilay Vardar
His pen name is Pakrat Estukyan even though his identity card says his
surname is EstukoÄ?lu. His original name Estukyan became EstukoÄ?lu when
surname law forbid using `yan' at the end of Armenian surnames. But he
uses Estukyan as his pseudonym to emphasize `how Armenian he is'.
Estukyan was born in 1953 in Rumelihisari, Istanbul. During his
childhood years, he lived in Taksim Feridiye Street, a street where
Armenians mostly live in. He received his education from Esayan,
Mıhitaryan and Getronagan Armenian schools. During his teenager years,
him and his friends started Sayat Nova chorus. His passion of music
crossed his path with KardeÅ? Türküler.
He worked as a laboratory technician and wrote articles for Agos
newspaper, after Hrant Dink's murder, and he started to work at Agos's
Armenian-language desk.
He wrote Armenian Hay Stories and was Å?iÅ?li's municipal assembly
candidate of People's Democratic Party (HDP).
bianet talked to Estukyan on his genocide survivor grandmothers and
grandfathers, his music, his `obligatory' political adventure at HDP
and the continuing denial policy before the arrival of 99th
anniversary of Armenian genocide.
`No such thing as hometown"
You're from Ä°stanbul, what about your parents?
Except my parents, all of my family came to Ä°stanbul after 1915. All
of these people lost touch with their relatives and their hometowns.
Both my parents don't have any uncles or aunts. From all those crowded
families, only one member was left, so they married each other and
started up a life in Ä°stanbul.
Where are your grandmothers and grandfathers from?
My father's father is from Ezbider village of SuÅ?ehir, Sivas
province. The name of the village is Akıncılar now. My grandfather was
working in Ortaköy bakery to earn money during war years. They took
him under military service after that. While he was at the war in Å?am,
Englishmen took him hostage and made him work at a hospital over
there. After the treaty, he went back to his hometown, his aim was to
go back home, but he had no idea about neither the massacre and nor
1915.
When he arrives in HaydarpaÅ?a, he sees a tent town, lots of people
speaking Armenian. My grandfather wants to learn who those people are,
what they are doing there. He runs into his brother-in-law there.
`I would like to go back to my hometown' he tells him.
`No, you won't. You don't have a hometown anymore. You don't have a
wife or a daughter. They all died.'
So my grandfather stays in Ä°stanbul. He meets his second wife, my
grandmother. My grandmother was exiled from Erbaa, Tokat province. She
used to tell about 1915 so vividly.
"Women from Niksar saved my grandmother"
How?
She described it like this; `One day, municipal forces arrived. They
gathered all of Erbaa's Armenian men in a parcel covered with prickly
wires. My mother sent them food. My brother said they don't want it,
and sent me back. I cried on the way back to our house. That was the
last time I saw them.'
They made them walk until the outside of Erbaa and executed all of
them. Immediately afterwards, they went back to Armenian houses and
told women to take whatever they can, because they were going to be
exiled. Then, just like that, women walked away from Erbaa, crying.
But, they were only able to go to Niksar.
`Around that time, Topal Osman's gang came to Niksar, and said: `No
one's going anywhere, take all of them to the baths.' When we heard
this, we imagined what's coming next for us. They were going to burn
us in the baths. They stuffed us into the baths. When Niksar women
heard about this they immediately came there. They tried to save as
much children as they could, but they saved girls mostly. They also
saved me, took me to a Muslim family, I stayed there for a while. They
made my name Emine.'
She used to describe everything like this.
How long did she stay with the family?
She got sick with typhus, her head went bald. They took really good
care of her. After that, an Armenian woman trying to save Armenian
girls from Muslim families brought my grandmother to Ä°stanbul and she
married my grandfather.
What happened to that family from Niksar?
My grandparents were in touch with them all the time. We never lost
touch and I met with their grandchildren.
"My grandfather jumped off the ship"
What about your mother's family?
My mother's father is from Erzincan, Kemah. He was a tinsmith but he
also went back and forth to Russia as a worker. My mother's mother is
from Å?ebinkarahisar.
My grandmother was at the orphanage after 1915; they met and got
married there. They settled in Trabzon. My grandfather was sent to
Çanakkale in 1921 as a soldier and my grandmother gave birth to my
mother at that time. After my mother was born, an instruction came to
clear Trabzon from all Armenians and Greeks. My mother was in her
bundle, she wasn't even 40 days old yet.
What did they do?
My grandmother comes to Ä°stanbul along with her baby on her lap on the
famous ship called Gülcemal. At that time, the church was setting up
refugee camps for Armenians who came from Anatolia. Camps were in
Samatya, HaydarpaÅ?a and Ortaköy. My mother arrives to the one in
Samatya.
My grandfather, released from the military forces, sees that Trabzon
is being cleared out, and goes to Ä°stanbul on that ship. But, they
don't let the ship to stop in Ä°stanbul, they say there are lots of
Armenians and Greeks in Ä°stanbul now, ships are not going to stop
there anymore, and they're going to Greece directly.
But the ship stops anyways to get coals. When people hear that the
ship arrived from Trabzon they run to the port and try to look for
their relatives with boats.
My grandmother also goes there but she wasn't able to find my
grandmother and goes back to camp. She sees my grandfather drenched as
she arrives to camp. Even though he didn't know how to swim, he jumped
out of the ship to escape from going to Greece. Boatmen took him to
the camp. This is the image; a movie would come out of these stories¦
So, this is how our Ä°stanbul adventure starts.
`We Used to Listen About the Genocide Like a Tale'
How did your parents, second generation of genocide, build a life
here? Their memories must have been pretty fresh.
Memories were fresh but to us everything sounded like a tale.
Sometimes, my grandparents used to sit and talk about old days. We
used to listen to them as if everything was a distant tale; we were
never able to understand the seriousness of the situation.
We were aware that it was a major trauma but in those days'
terminology, they didn't use genocide, they used to call it slaughter
and exile. There weren't any political messages under that. They went
through some terrible incidents. That's how they saw it.
We were lucky because these things were spoken in our houses. In many
houses, grandparents never talk about these things to protect their
children. As we were growing up, we started to question everything,
made them talk about it and never took those things out of our minds
ever since.
How did your path cross with Agos?
I'm in Agos since the day it was created. Hrant wanted me to write
articles from time to time. After he was murdered, I started to work
in the newspaper full time.
What kind of a change did Hrant Dink's murder create?
It was a very serious change. Because when Hrant was murdered, unlike
the courts that weren't able to give a decision in 7 years, public of
Turkey gave their decision in 10 minutes. Everyone knew who murdered
Hrant. Public of Turkey saw the big picture, hiding behind Ogün Samast
and others. They saw it, and they didn't like it at all. Over 200
thousand people walked that day. There were a few Armenians in them,
including the secret Armenians.
"No Armenians at April 24 Commemoration"
Why were there few Armenians?
While we were listening about the genocide, we knew so well that we
can't talk about it in the street. They didn't teach us that, we
internalized it. No one cared anyways. What are you going to tell who?
`My grandfather went through this and that.' It doesn't matter.
We are afraid and we only have few people, it means nothing. Our fear
prevents us to create any kind of awareness. We don't have the nerves
or the bravery to create an awareness, we will just shut up and hush.
There are April 24 anniversaries being done at Taksim Square for four
years. About 500-1000 people go there every year. We don't have that
much people. It looks like Armenians are still watching everything
behind their curtains.
`I want my gradpa's name Agop"
What about non-Armenians?
What changed now is: There are many books published on the Armenian
issue. Lots of memory books, serious examination books, academicians'
researches. People stop and think about their country from a different
point of view.
I'm not talking about Armenians, I'm talking about non-Armenians. They
look at the books and see what happened in their hometown before. They
would like to know the details. The situation wasn't like this before.
No one asked questions in Turkey before.
And when they started to ask¦
People ask their own grandparents. They want them to tell their own
stories, what they know about those times. Armenians' presences in the
families are talked about now. They think: `My grandmother is
originally an Armenian. Doesn't she have any sisters or brothers;
doesn't she have any relatives alive?' People go after these things.
Some people say they are Armenian from both sides. They understand
that Armenians married each other to reserve their genes. They're
saying my name is Mustafa, why should I be a Mustafa? My grandfather's
name was Agop, so I would like my name to be Agop too. He goes to the
patriarchate in Kumkapı, but no one seems sincere, they don't
understand why he came.
Why?
The church is conservative and afraid. If they accept one person,
they're scared more people will come to them. And then, Akit newspaper
will put on a headline saying Patriarchate is being missionary and
changing Muslims to Christianity. They would be targeted. They're
afraid they can't deal with all these things.
"Any nation could commit genocide at the right climate'
You said people changed, but what about the official statements?
There is still a denial policy going on, and since it doesn't have any
scientific grounds, Prime Minister ErdoÄ?an expresses it like this: `My
ancestors wouldn't have committed genocide, Muslims don't commit
genocide, Turkish soldiers don't rape.'
We know that Turkish people commit genocide as well as Germans;
Armenians would have too, if they thought it was necessary. We can't
restrict this to nations. This is a crime against humanity and if the
appropriate grounds are set, any nation could be a part of it. All
societies have this potential.
In Turkey, the appropriate grounds were set in the year of 1915. One
of my friends told me: `I have such grandfathers, they cut 6 Armenians
and looking for the 7th one to go to heaven.' They were able to inject
these ideas to people. For example, people in Syria are ready to cut
Alewites and Christians.
Which effects of the genocide is still painful for Armenians?
The most obvious pain for Armenians is denial. In a way, denial means
pursuing the genocide. There is also a deeper pain, loss of homeland.
In the history of Armenians, you can see countless number of tyrannies
like this. Armenia had been invaded by various powerful countries
before, and every time, there were many massive slaughters and exiles.
But Armenians had never lost their homeland before.
2015 is coming up¦ What do you think about it?
2015 is a date only, we are going to live it, and it is going to pass.
It's not a magical wand. What's important is to create a change in
people's minds in Turkey. They need to reconsider their perception.
If we learn how to do empathy, Turkey will be a more livable country,
and we will be in peace with the world. (NV/ENÃ`/BM)
http://www.bianet.org/english/minorities/155222-we-used-to-listen-about-the-genocide-like-a-tale
From: A. Papazian