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STEPHEN POUND MP SECURES ADJOURNMENT DEBATE ON THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
The Armenian National Committee of the United Kingdom is pleased
to announce that, subsequent to its joint request with the Armenian
Genocide Centennial Commemoration Committee, Mr Stephen Pound, the
Member of Parliament for Ealing North, secured a debate in the House
of Commons on the Armenian Genocide on the evening of 23rd March 2015.
During the course of the debate, Mr Pound provided a clear and succinct
history of the tragic events, detailing the circumstances that led
to the massacre of the Armenian people, and forcefully calling on
the British Government to ultimately recognise the massacres as
Genocide. He noted also that the British Government at the time had
acknowledged the very seriousness of the actions by the Ottoman
Empire and had made a real attempt to try those responsible for
the crimes that had been committed. Further to his speech, Mr John
Whittingdale, the Member of Parliament for Maldon and Chairman of the
British-Armenian All Parliamentary Group, spoke to echo Mr Pound's
comments and to emphasise to the House the importance of recognising
the events as Genocide.
In replying for the Government, Mr David Lidington, the Minister
of State for Europe, began by recounting that on April 24th 1915
leading members of the Armenian community were arrested, and that
this marked the beginning of a campaign of forced deportations of
Armenians. In outlining that the British Government at the time
condemned these deportations and crimes, Mr Lidington went on to
state that "We continue to endorse that view." He also advised the
House that Britain's Ambassador to Armenia would attend the Armenian
Government's commemorations on April 24th this year.
Attending the debate on Mr Pound's invitation, in the spectators'
gallery, were Mr. Ara Palamoudian, Chairman of the Armenian Community
Council, Messrs Armen Liloyan and Ara Margarian, representing the
Armenian Embassy, and the Very Reverend Father Aren Shaheenian. Also
present were Mr. Vahan Krikorian and Mr Sevan Artin, respectively
the Chairman and the Executive Director of the Armenian National
Committee of the United Kingdom.
A fully transcript of the proceedings by Hansard and the full video
of the debate are available below:
Armenian National Committee of the United Kingdom March 2015
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/
Business without Debate
Business of the House
Ordered,
That, in respect of the Finance (No.2) Bill, notices of Amendments,
new Clauses and new Schedules to be moved in Committee may be accepted
by the Clerks at the Table before the Bill has been read a second
time.--(Mr Wallace.)
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1260
1915 Armenian Genocide
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now
adjourn.--(Mr Wallace.)
10.44 pm
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): I am glad that Members have decided
not to leave the Chamber. The subject of this Adjournment debate is
the commemoration of one of the most appalling, heinous acts that
has ever been committed on this earth: the Armenian genocide of 23
and 24 April 1915.
May I at the outset put one thing firmly on the record? What I have
to say tonight is not an attack on the Government of Turkey. I am not
criticising the Government of Turkey. I realise that these debates
frequently engender much heat and very little light in Ankara, but
I am talking specifically of the actions of the Ottoman empire and
particularly the Young Turks, whom I will mention later, in 1915.
I make no apologies for raising this matter. Not only are we
approaching the 100th anniversary of this appalling crime against
humanity, in which 1.5 million people were killed in the most
horrendous circumstances and an attempt was made to destroy an entire
people--their culture, nationhood and very being and existence. This
is also a time when two books have just been published. The first, "An
Inconvenient Genocide" by Geoffrey Robertson, once and for all proves
to those gainsayers who are still out there that the genocide was real
and that it did happen: the dates, names and times are provided. The
other excellent book is "The Fall of the Ottomans" by Eugene Rogan,
which contains a chapter on the annihilation of the Armenians.
It is otiose even to ask the question, "Was there genocide?" Yet
the question has been asked many times. People have said there was
no genocide in 1915, but to a certain extent that was not the only
genocide. The Armenians--a people of incredible, intense culture
and great sophistication--were assaulted between 1894 and 1896,
when 200,000 people were killed. There was the Adana massacre of
1909, in which 20,000 to 30,000 people were killed. In particular,
leading up to 1915, after the 1912 Balkan wars, refugees from the
Caucasus and Rumelia--they were known as muhacirs--moved from the
south Balkans and the Caucasus into Anatolia. That movement into the
traditional Armenian land, coupled with the aftermath of the battle of
Sarikamish--which took place on 24 December 1914, when the Russians
defeated the Ottoman army--led to a completely different situation
whereby the peaceful Armenian people suddenly found themselves between
different warring factions: on the one hand the Ottoman empire, and
on the other people moving into their land, so they were dispossessed.
The then War Minister, Enver Pasha, demobilised all Armenians from the
army--many of them fought in the Ottoman army--into labour battalions,
and the infamous tehcir law, which is known as the deportation law,
was passed by Talaat Pasha, the Interior Minister.
At that particular time, the Young Turks had arrived--the Committee of
Union and Progress as they were known--and the massacre commenced in
Istanbul on the night of 23 April. It is impossible to imagine what
it must have been like. Anatolia--western Armenia--was a peaceful
country in which the Armenians had succeeded greatly.
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1261
They had filled many posts, not just in the army, but in medicine
and law. They were a peaceful and prosperous people. Just as the
upper echelon of Poles at Katyn were massacred, similarly the upper
echelon of Armenians were taken to slaughter.
Did it happen? There were so many eyewitnesses there at the time.
American Ambassador Morgenthau gave a detailed account, and Father
Grigoris Balakian, who survived and was in Istanbul when the entente
fleets finally sailed in at the end of the war, gave an incredible
amount of detail. Above all, one of the reasons why we in this House
can discuss this matter and know about it is the single, definitive
volume describing the horror of the genocide, namely the famous
"Blue Book" by Lord Bryce and Arnold Toynbee.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Obviously, this is an important issue
for us as parliamentarians. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it
is past time that the Turkish Government not only admitted to the
historical genocide of 1.5 million Armenians, but apologised for
the most horrific atrocities they carried out at the time? We cannot
ignore the fact that the Turkish Government have to apologise for that.
Stephen Pound: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his
intervention, but I am reluctant to go entirely down that route.
Obviously the Turkish Government should do so, but today I am talking
about the commemoration in this House, particularly as we approach
24 April. I cannot disagree with him--I surprise myself at how seldom
I disagree with him--but we should concentrate on the subject at issue.
One and a half million people were driven to die in the burning sands
of the Syrian desert in a death march to two concentration camps,
in which the men were killed first. The then Interior Minister said,
"Kill the men, the women and all the children up to the height of
my knee." If that is not genocide, I really do not know what is. In
Trabzon--or Trebizond--14,000 were killed. Many of them were put into
boats, which were dragged into the Black sea and sunk. People were
injected with typhoid or morphine. Experiments took place on children
in a way that presages what happened under the Nazis. Incidentally,
what happened in Trebizond was witnessed by the Italian consul general,
Gorrini, who started out being sceptical, but ended up as horrified
as every other civilised person.
It happened: it is incontrovertible that it happened. It happened
within the memory of some people still living. Their grandparents
and their great-grandparents died: their bones are still there in the
Syrian desert, and their homes are still there in Anatolia, no longer
occupied, although their Christian churches have been destroyed. It
is within living memory, so why are we not recognising it?
One of the joys of the Freedom of Information Act is that we can get
hold of copies of confidential briefings from the south Caucasus team.
Last time this issue was raised by Baroness Cox, that indefatigable
friend of Armenia--she has visited Nagorno-Karabakh some 70 times,
not always in a combat role, but frequently under fire--she had a
debate on 29 March 2010, and I have been provided with the document,
although it is partly redacted. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office
position at the time was that
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1262
"it is not appropriate for the UK Government to use the term genocide".
However, the briefing states:
"The British Government recognises that terrible suffering was
inflicted on Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire...and we must
ensure that the victims of that suffering are not forgotten."
I am torn between admiration of the honesty of the ministerial
officials and slight horror, because the middle paragraphs are entitled
"Bear Traps"--things to watch out for. It goes on to say what would
happen to Anglo-Turkish relations if the British Government agreed
to the term, and it talks about early-day motion 357 and various
other debates.
The crux of the reason why the Government would not agree to
recognition is that in one debate--I have had three debates on this
subject--the then Foreign Office Minister Geoffrey Hoon said that we
could not call it the Armenian "genocide" because Raphael Lemkin did
not invent the word until 1944 or 1945. Let us think about that for
a minute. When Cain killed Abel, there was no word for fratricide,
but Abel was just as dead as if there had been such a word. Raphael
Lemkin was present in Berlin at the trial of Soghomon Tehlirian,
one of the members of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation who was
part of the Nemesis group that assassinated 10 of the 18 perpetrators
of the genocide indicted in the military tribunal in Istanbul at the
end of the first world war, in what most people think was an attempt
to minimise the impact of the treaty of Versailles. Raphael Lemkin,
who is accepted as the originator of the word, said that it was his
experience of that trial, listening to the evidence of the genocide
of the Armenian people, that made him use it. The assassination of
Talaat Pasha in Berlin in 1921 clearly precedes the use of the word
"genocide", but the same person--the man who coined the word--was
actually at that trial and referred to it.
We are not entirely sure how many, but 20 or 22 national Parliaments
have recognised the Armenian genocide, including the devolved
Assemblies in Scotland, Wales and--I am delighted to say--Northern
Ireland. No one who visits the Genocide museum in Yerevan and sees
testimony from all around the world, photographs, cards, letters and
books can remain unmoved. No one can deny for a moment that something
horrible and terrible beyond human imagination took place in western
Armenia at that time.
Genocide is a crime that is intended to destroy a people. Genocide
denial is a crime that is intended to destroy a people's memory. The
Armenian people will not have their memory, their culture, their
individuality, their strength or their national pride destroyed. Many
people have tried; none have ever succeeded, nor ever will they. Think
of the double agony of those people whose families were massacred,
whose culture was destroyed, whose homelands have been taken over
and who are now having that very act denied. That, for me, is the
supreme double cruelty.
The British Government will be represented in Gallipoli on 24 April.
By coincidence--I make no comment about that--that is the same
day as the international recognition of the Armenian genocide. The
Gallipoli landing is often prayed in aid by those who apologise for
the Ottoman empire of the time. They say that the Gallipoli landing
somehow stimulated the action of the Young Turks, who were terrified
that some Armenian
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1263
fifth column would arise and attack Turkey with the Russians. In
reality, as we all know, the massacre that started the great
genocide took place on the night before. To suggest that moving the
commemoration of Gallipoli to the same day, 24 April, as the Turks have
done, is anything other than a provocative act is pushing credulity.
Will the British Government be present? President Putin will be there.
Francois Hollande will be there. I have heard that a distinguished
colleague of mine, although he might not be from my side of the
Chamber, will be there. I admire that, I respect that and I am proud
of that. We will hear from him later. Can we not go the extra mile?
Can we not finally give support and succour to the Armenian people
whose relatives died? Can we not say to the Armenian community in this
country--one of the most peaceful, law-abiding, hard-working, decent
communities that we are proud to have in our country--that we, along
with 22 other countries of the world, recognise the genocide that took
place? Edinburgh has recognised it. Many councils have recognised it.
Even my own little borough of Ealing has done so. We have a strong
Armenian apricot tree growing in Ealing soil--British soil--in
commemoration of that event. I would like to see a memorial garden
in Ealing.
I would like to see wider recognition. Is that not fair when a people
have suffered, as have the Armenian people? In many cases, they have
suffered in silence. We do not see huge marches through the city or
massive protests. The Armenian people are a dignified people. The
people of Armenian descent in our country concentrate on hard work, on
achievement and on preserving their dignity, but they also keep their
culture. They have integrated, but they have not been assimilated. To
be Armenian is to be a good citizen, but it is also to be different.
That unique, special Armenian quality is worthy of a little
recognition.
Can we not finally say it in this House--maybe not tonight, maybe
not even before the election, but some time soon? For years it has
been our policy to deny that the Armenian genocide took place, and
yet we have the FCO briefing here that talks about the suffering of
the Armenian people. Would it hurt so much? Are we not straining at
the gnat here? Could we not go that last little bit and say, "Yes,
it happened."? Then, hopefully, the wave of global condemnation
would wash up even across the battlements in Ankara and the Turkish
Government would admit that their predecessors, the Ottoman Government
back in 1915, did commit appalling crimes.
I was in this House, as were you, Mr Speaker, when the then Prime
Minister, Mr Blair, apologised for the Irish famine of 1848. He
apologised on behalf of this country for an appalling act that was
horrendous in its brutality and in its impact on the Irish people. He
felt justified in apologising for that. Some people said that he
should not have done so. I think that he did so because this country
was very much a part of that process. I think that Mr Blair did the
right thing in apologising.
We have an opportunity tonight to do the right thing, and not just by
our Armenian friends, our Armenian brothers and sisters, our Armenian
community, our Armenian fellow citizens--those people who have earned
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1264
the right to our respect and friendship through their contribution
to our society. We have an opportunity to do the right thing not just
for the sake of Armenia and the Armenian people, but for the sake of
humanity. Humanity really needs to recognise what happened in 1915. As
long as it is denied, it can happen again. As long as we say, "It
didn't happen", we echo the terrible words that everybody remembers
from Hitler in 1939, when he justified the invasion of Poland by
saying, "Who now remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?"
I think that all decent people, all human beings, recognise and
remember the annihilation of the Armenians, and I hope that we are all
determined to recognise it and ensure that it never happens again. I
say to my Armenian friends, fellow citizens and Armenian brothers
and sisters: we thank you for all you have done for this country,
and this is our small way of returning that thanks.
11 pm
Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): I congratulate the hon. Member
for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) on obtaining this debate and putting
with his customary eloquence the case for why it is important that
we in this House remember what was one of the first great crimes of
the 20th century. He has worked on behalf of his constituents from
Armenia and the Armenian community generally for a long time, and it
was a pleasure to be in Yerevan with him just over a year ago.
It is entirely right that we in this House mark the centenary of the
Armenian genocide. We have commemorated other genocides here, such as
those that took place in the Balkans and in Rwanda and, of course,
the holocaust. As the hon. Gentleman said, the term "genocide" was
originally coined by Raphael Lemkin who, when he came to describe
what had happened to his own people--the Jewish people--initially
had the experience of hearing about the massacre of the Armenians,
which undoubtedly influenced him.
The hon. Gentleman made a strong case, and I concur that we should use
the term "genocide" to describe what was clearly a deliberate attempt
to kill an entire people. In a sense, whether we use that word or not
there is no question but that the massacre of more than 1 million
people--perhaps 1.5 million Armenians who were either massacred or
starved to death--was a horrendous crime. Both he and I have visited
the memorial to the genocide in Yerevan and the museum, and anybody
who goes there can be left in no doubt of the true horror of what
occurred. The evidence is overwhelming. Those who try to dismiss it
cannot argue with the records, photographs and accounts of witnesses,
both Armenian and international, not least those from this country
whose testimony is perhaps among the most powerful. As a result, it is
important that we remember what happened, and renew our determination
to ensure that that kind of event never happens again.
The hon. Gentleman is right to say that this is not about apportioning
blame, certainly not to the present Turkish Government, and I welcome
the fact that the Prime Minister of Turkey talked about the shared pain
and offered his condolences a year ago. I hope that that provides an
opportunity to try to build reconciliation between Armenia and Turkey,
and to normalise relations and perhaps in due course to re-open the
border between those two countries. I hope that can still be achieved.
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1265
I was very struck by a speech that I heard not long ago by the former
Prime Minister of Armenia and Armenian ambassador to this country,
Dr Armen Sarkissian. He said that of course we should remember what
occurred and commemorate the loss of life, but that more importantly
it is an opportunity to celebrate the survival of a great people
and a great country. I am delighted that we have had the chance this
evening to put that on record in this place, and in four weeks' time
I shall be honoured to pay my own tribute in Yerevan to those who died.
11.4 pm
The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): I congratulate the hon.
Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) on securing the debate. I
pay tribute to the moving way in which both he and my hon. Friend
the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) spoke about the tragedy that
befell the Armenian people just over 100 years ago.
It was on 24 April 1915 that about 250 leading members of the Armenian
community in Istanbul were arrested. This marked the beginning of a
campaign of forced deportations directed against the Ottoman Armenian
community. From 1915 to 1916 during the course of the deportations to
the Syrian desert, it is estimated that well over 1 million Ottoman
Armenians lost their lives as a result of massacres by soldiers or
irregulars, forced marches, starvation and disease. A number of other
minorities, such as the Assyrians, also suffered.
The British Government of that time robustly condemned the forced
deportations, massacres and other crimes. We continue to endorse
that view. British charities, as we look back, played a major part
then in humanitarian relief operations. The deaths of more than 1
million Armenians in the Ottoman empire was an appalling civilian
loss of life against the backdrop of the first world war, a conflict
which itself broke new ground in developing international warfare on
an industrial scale.
Today, the centenary of those terrible events has huge significance,
as the hon. Member for Ealing North said, for the people of Armenia
and for the worldwide Armenian diaspora. As an inseparable part of
the tragedy of first world war, it is entirely appropriate that we
in this country include this tragedy in our remembrance of the first
world war to honour the dead, and to draw lessons from history and
hope for a better future. The British Government's commemorations
this year have focused on how the first world war shaped society and
touched lives and communities. The deportation and massacres of the
Ottoman Armenians, and the role played by the UK and other allies in
reporting the atrocities and helping the survivors, are an indivisible
part of that story. The events and commemorative activities, which
the Armenian community in the UK will organise on 24 April and over
the course of this year, will help to illuminate further that period
of history for British people, some of whom may be hearing about it
for the first time.
The appalling nature of the events of 1915-16 were brought home
vividly to me when I visited the Tsitsernakaberd memorial museum in
Yerevan during my first ministerial visit to Armenia in 2012. When
I went back to Armenia last year, I laid a wreath at the memorial to
pay my respects to those who had died and
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1266
those who had suffered. As has been said, in this centenary year my
hon. Friend the Member for Maldon, as chair of the British-Armenian
all-party group, and our ambassador to Yerevan will be present at
the Armenian Government's commemorations on 24 April in the Armenian
capital.
As discussed in today's debate, for this country and the Commonwealth
the dates of 24 and 25 April have great significance for an additional
reason, as the days we remember the centenary of the allied landings
at Gallipoli. On 24 April, His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales will
attend a ceremony in Gallipoli to honour the memory of all those who
died during the campaign, including soldiers from Britain, Ireland,
France, Australia, New Zealand, the Indian subcontinent, Canada and
Sri Lanka, as well as the Ottoman soldiers who died defending the
peninsula. Those sombre commemorations in both Gallipoli and Yerevan
should be used to honour the memory of those who lost their lives,
whether soldiers or civilians, and to reflect carefully on the painful
lessons we have learnt from history and how to prevent such events
from happening again.
The hon. Member for Ealing North asked me a direct question about
the Government's policy on the recognition of the events in Armenia
as a genocide. I have to say to him that the Government's policy,
indeed the policy of successive Governments, has not changed since
1988 when this matter was reviewed. We take the view that genocide is
not simply an expression of a political judgment. It is now a crime,
and the British Government recognise as genocide only those events
found to be so by international courts--for example, the holocaust and
the massacres in Srebrenica and Rwanda. We do not exercise a political
judgment in ascribing the term "genocide" to a set of events, whether
in Armenia, the Holodomor in Ukraine or the massacres of the Kurds
by Saddam Hussein in 1998.
In honouring and reflecting upon the past, it is vital that we look
to the future. The peoples and Governments of Turkey and Armenia need
to find a way to face their joint history together and forge a new,
more constructive relationship, and part of the role the UK seeks for
itself is to support them in finding this path forward. I will not
pretend that we from London can provide instant answers, but we are
doing what we can practically to foster people-to-people exchanges
and links between the two countries to break down stereotypes and
barriers. For example, we have just completed a successful exchange
of Turkish and Armenian Chevening alumni who visited each other's
countries for the first time.
Ultimately, the Governments of Armenia and Turkey must take the lead in
forging and delivering that new relationship. For that reason, the UK
Government strongly supported the imaginative diplomacy that led to the
Turkish-Armenia protocols in 2009. The protocols envisaged opening the
border and initiating diplomatic relations without any preconditions,
and it is a matter of great regret that the ratification process for
those protocols has not moved forward. I hope that both sides will
continue to consider creative ways to re-set their relations and open
up new channels for dialogue and co-operation.
This year, we will reflect with sadness on the nature and horrific
scale of the deportations, massacres and other crimes in 1915-16 and on
the importance of this centenary for Armenia and Armenians worldwide,
but we will also renew our commitment this year to promote
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1267
reconciliation between Armenia and Turkey. A genuine step forward along
that path to reconciliation would take us towards a more peaceful and
secure future for everyone living in the region. I continue to hope
that both Turkey and Armenia can find a way to look together towards
a brighter future.
Stephen Pound: I have immense respect for the right hon. Gentleman--he
and I have met the President of Armenia, and I entirely respect his
position--but immediately after the genocide, the British Navy took
50 of the worst suspects from the Young Turks to Malta to try them
because it recognised that what had happened was against civilisation.
There was not sufficient legislation at the time for the trial to
take place so the British took them back--probably rightly so--but
does he not agree
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1268
that we need that recognition now so as to avoid such a situation
in the future? I am not criticising Turkey. I am talking about the
Ottoman empire.
Mr Lidington: I hesitate to get into a legal dispute with the hon.
Gentleman, but we take the view, as have successive British
Governments, that international law, including the 1948 protocol on
genocide, is not retroactive, and that is part of the explanation for
our position. That is not to detract from the horror of what took place
100 years ago, or to suggest that we will draw back from our commitment
to seek the reconciliation of the peoples of Turkey and Armenia and
to strive as hard as we can to bring about that much desired outcome.
Question put and agreed to.
11.14 pm
House adjourned.
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1269
Mr Speaker's Ruling (Presentation of Public Petitions by Ministers)
The following Private Ruling given by Mr Speaker is published in
accordance with the Speaker's undertaking of 5 November 1981 (Official
Report, c. 113)
When a Member of the House accepts appointment as a Minister
of the Crown, he or she accedes to the convention on collective
responsibility.
The procedures of the House depend on its being able to rely on the
presumption that whenever a Minister speaks or acts in the course
of its proceedings, he or she does so on behalf of Her Majesty's
Government. Ministers cannot choose to assume or divest themselves
of their
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1270
status as Ministers of the Crown in the course of the House's
proceedings--this would introduce a degree of uncertainty and ambiguity
which would be injurious to the clarity of its proceedings.
The specific question has been raised with me whether a Minister can
present a public petition on the Floor of the House. The Government
cannot present a petition, and a Minister cannot act as a private
Member. I have therefore ruled that a Minister cannot present a public
petition on the Floor of the House.
Ministers are, however, free to present a public petition informally
(that is, by depositing it in the petitions bag at any time at which
the House is sitting), but the Votes and Proceedings will not in such
cases identify the Member who deposited the petition.
The Armenian National Committee of the United Kingdom is pleased
to announce that, subsequent to its joint request with the Armenian
Genocide Centennial Commemoration Committee, Mr Stephen Pound, the
Member of Parliament for Ealing North, secured a debate in the House
of Commons on the Armenian Genocide on the evening of 23rd March 2015.
During the course of the debate, Mr Pound provided a clear and succinct
history of the tragic events, detailing the circumstances that led
to the massacre of the Armenian people, and forcefully calling on
the British Government to ultimately recognise the massacres as
Genocide. He noted also that the British Government at the time had
acknowledged the very seriousness of the actions by the Ottoman
Empire and had made a real attempt to try those responsible for
the crimes that had been committed. Further to his speech, Mr John
Whittingdale, the Member of Parliament for Maldon and Chairman of the
British-Armenian All Parliamentary Group, spoke to echo Mr Pound's
comments and to emphasise to the House the importance of recognising
the events as Genocide.
In replying for the Government, Mr David Lidington, the Minister
of State for Europe, began by recounting that on April 24th 1915
leading members of the Armenian community were arrested, and that
this marked the beginning of a campaign of forced deportations of
Armenians. In outlining that the British Government at the time
condemned these deportations and crimes, Mr Lidington went on to
state that "We continue to endorse that view." He also advised the
House that Britain's Ambassador to Armenia would attend the Armenian
Government's commemorations on April 24th this year.
Attending the debate on Mr Pound's invitation, in the spectators'
gallery, were Mr. Ara Palamoudian, Chairman of the Armenian Community
Council, Messrs Armen Liloyan and Ara Margarian, representing the
Armenian Embassy, and the Very Reverend Father Aren Shaheenian. Also
present were Mr. Vahan Krikorian and Mr Sevan Artin, respectively
the Chairman and the Executive Director of the Armenian National
Committee of the United Kingdom.
A fully transcript of the proceedings by Hansard and the full video
of the debate are available below:
Armenian National Committee of the United Kingdom March 2015
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/
Business without Debate
Business of the House
Ordered,
That, in respect of the Finance (No.2) Bill, notices of Amendments,
new Clauses and new Schedules to be moved in Committee may be accepted
by the Clerks at the Table before the Bill has been read a second
time.--(Mr Wallace.)
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1260
1915 Armenian Genocide
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now
adjourn.--(Mr Wallace.)
10.44 pm
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): I am glad that Members have decided
not to leave the Chamber. The subject of this Adjournment debate is
the commemoration of one of the most appalling, heinous acts that
has ever been committed on this earth: the Armenian genocide of 23
and 24 April 1915.
May I at the outset put one thing firmly on the record? What I have
to say tonight is not an attack on the Government of Turkey. I am not
criticising the Government of Turkey. I realise that these debates
frequently engender much heat and very little light in Ankara, but
I am talking specifically of the actions of the Ottoman empire and
particularly the Young Turks, whom I will mention later, in 1915.
I make no apologies for raising this matter. Not only are we
approaching the 100th anniversary of this appalling crime against
humanity, in which 1.5 million people were killed in the most
horrendous circumstances and an attempt was made to destroy an entire
people--their culture, nationhood and very being and existence. This
is also a time when two books have just been published. The first, "An
Inconvenient Genocide" by Geoffrey Robertson, once and for all proves
to those gainsayers who are still out there that the genocide was real
and that it did happen: the dates, names and times are provided. The
other excellent book is "The Fall of the Ottomans" by Eugene Rogan,
which contains a chapter on the annihilation of the Armenians.
It is otiose even to ask the question, "Was there genocide?" Yet
the question has been asked many times. People have said there was
no genocide in 1915, but to a certain extent that was not the only
genocide. The Armenians--a people of incredible, intense culture
and great sophistication--were assaulted between 1894 and 1896,
when 200,000 people were killed. There was the Adana massacre of
1909, in which 20,000 to 30,000 people were killed. In particular,
leading up to 1915, after the 1912 Balkan wars, refugees from the
Caucasus and Rumelia--they were known as muhacirs--moved from the
south Balkans and the Caucasus into Anatolia. That movement into the
traditional Armenian land, coupled with the aftermath of the battle of
Sarikamish--which took place on 24 December 1914, when the Russians
defeated the Ottoman army--led to a completely different situation
whereby the peaceful Armenian people suddenly found themselves between
different warring factions: on the one hand the Ottoman empire, and
on the other people moving into their land, so they were dispossessed.
The then War Minister, Enver Pasha, demobilised all Armenians from the
army--many of them fought in the Ottoman army--into labour battalions,
and the infamous tehcir law, which is known as the deportation law,
was passed by Talaat Pasha, the Interior Minister.
At that particular time, the Young Turks had arrived--the Committee of
Union and Progress as they were known--and the massacre commenced in
Istanbul on the night of 23 April. It is impossible to imagine what
it must have been like. Anatolia--western Armenia--was a peaceful
country in which the Armenians had succeeded greatly.
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They had filled many posts, not just in the army, but in medicine
and law. They were a peaceful and prosperous people. Just as the
upper echelon of Poles at Katyn were massacred, similarly the upper
echelon of Armenians were taken to slaughter.
Did it happen? There were so many eyewitnesses there at the time.
American Ambassador Morgenthau gave a detailed account, and Father
Grigoris Balakian, who survived and was in Istanbul when the entente
fleets finally sailed in at the end of the war, gave an incredible
amount of detail. Above all, one of the reasons why we in this House
can discuss this matter and know about it is the single, definitive
volume describing the horror of the genocide, namely the famous
"Blue Book" by Lord Bryce and Arnold Toynbee.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Obviously, this is an important issue
for us as parliamentarians. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it
is past time that the Turkish Government not only admitted to the
historical genocide of 1.5 million Armenians, but apologised for
the most horrific atrocities they carried out at the time? We cannot
ignore the fact that the Turkish Government have to apologise for that.
Stephen Pound: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his
intervention, but I am reluctant to go entirely down that route.
Obviously the Turkish Government should do so, but today I am talking
about the commemoration in this House, particularly as we approach
24 April. I cannot disagree with him--I surprise myself at how seldom
I disagree with him--but we should concentrate on the subject at issue.
One and a half million people were driven to die in the burning sands
of the Syrian desert in a death march to two concentration camps,
in which the men were killed first. The then Interior Minister said,
"Kill the men, the women and all the children up to the height of
my knee." If that is not genocide, I really do not know what is. In
Trabzon--or Trebizond--14,000 were killed. Many of them were put into
boats, which were dragged into the Black sea and sunk. People were
injected with typhoid or morphine. Experiments took place on children
in a way that presages what happened under the Nazis. Incidentally,
what happened in Trebizond was witnessed by the Italian consul general,
Gorrini, who started out being sceptical, but ended up as horrified
as every other civilised person.
It happened: it is incontrovertible that it happened. It happened
within the memory of some people still living. Their grandparents
and their great-grandparents died: their bones are still there in the
Syrian desert, and their homes are still there in Anatolia, no longer
occupied, although their Christian churches have been destroyed. It
is within living memory, so why are we not recognising it?
One of the joys of the Freedom of Information Act is that we can get
hold of copies of confidential briefings from the south Caucasus team.
Last time this issue was raised by Baroness Cox, that indefatigable
friend of Armenia--she has visited Nagorno-Karabakh some 70 times,
not always in a combat role, but frequently under fire--she had a
debate on 29 March 2010, and I have been provided with the document,
although it is partly redacted. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office
position at the time was that
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"it is not appropriate for the UK Government to use the term genocide".
However, the briefing states:
"The British Government recognises that terrible suffering was
inflicted on Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire...and we must
ensure that the victims of that suffering are not forgotten."
I am torn between admiration of the honesty of the ministerial
officials and slight horror, because the middle paragraphs are entitled
"Bear Traps"--things to watch out for. It goes on to say what would
happen to Anglo-Turkish relations if the British Government agreed
to the term, and it talks about early-day motion 357 and various
other debates.
The crux of the reason why the Government would not agree to
recognition is that in one debate--I have had three debates on this
subject--the then Foreign Office Minister Geoffrey Hoon said that we
could not call it the Armenian "genocide" because Raphael Lemkin did
not invent the word until 1944 or 1945. Let us think about that for
a minute. When Cain killed Abel, there was no word for fratricide,
but Abel was just as dead as if there had been such a word. Raphael
Lemkin was present in Berlin at the trial of Soghomon Tehlirian,
one of the members of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation who was
part of the Nemesis group that assassinated 10 of the 18 perpetrators
of the genocide indicted in the military tribunal in Istanbul at the
end of the first world war, in what most people think was an attempt
to minimise the impact of the treaty of Versailles. Raphael Lemkin,
who is accepted as the originator of the word, said that it was his
experience of that trial, listening to the evidence of the genocide
of the Armenian people, that made him use it. The assassination of
Talaat Pasha in Berlin in 1921 clearly precedes the use of the word
"genocide", but the same person--the man who coined the word--was
actually at that trial and referred to it.
We are not entirely sure how many, but 20 or 22 national Parliaments
have recognised the Armenian genocide, including the devolved
Assemblies in Scotland, Wales and--I am delighted to say--Northern
Ireland. No one who visits the Genocide museum in Yerevan and sees
testimony from all around the world, photographs, cards, letters and
books can remain unmoved. No one can deny for a moment that something
horrible and terrible beyond human imagination took place in western
Armenia at that time.
Genocide is a crime that is intended to destroy a people. Genocide
denial is a crime that is intended to destroy a people's memory. The
Armenian people will not have their memory, their culture, their
individuality, their strength or their national pride destroyed. Many
people have tried; none have ever succeeded, nor ever will they. Think
of the double agony of those people whose families were massacred,
whose culture was destroyed, whose homelands have been taken over
and who are now having that very act denied. That, for me, is the
supreme double cruelty.
The British Government will be represented in Gallipoli on 24 April.
By coincidence--I make no comment about that--that is the same
day as the international recognition of the Armenian genocide. The
Gallipoli landing is often prayed in aid by those who apologise for
the Ottoman empire of the time. They say that the Gallipoli landing
somehow stimulated the action of the Young Turks, who were terrified
that some Armenian
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fifth column would arise and attack Turkey with the Russians. In
reality, as we all know, the massacre that started the great
genocide took place on the night before. To suggest that moving the
commemoration of Gallipoli to the same day, 24 April, as the Turks have
done, is anything other than a provocative act is pushing credulity.
Will the British Government be present? President Putin will be there.
Francois Hollande will be there. I have heard that a distinguished
colleague of mine, although he might not be from my side of the
Chamber, will be there. I admire that, I respect that and I am proud
of that. We will hear from him later. Can we not go the extra mile?
Can we not finally give support and succour to the Armenian people
whose relatives died? Can we not say to the Armenian community in this
country--one of the most peaceful, law-abiding, hard-working, decent
communities that we are proud to have in our country--that we, along
with 22 other countries of the world, recognise the genocide that took
place? Edinburgh has recognised it. Many councils have recognised it.
Even my own little borough of Ealing has done so. We have a strong
Armenian apricot tree growing in Ealing soil--British soil--in
commemoration of that event. I would like to see a memorial garden
in Ealing.
I would like to see wider recognition. Is that not fair when a people
have suffered, as have the Armenian people? In many cases, they have
suffered in silence. We do not see huge marches through the city or
massive protests. The Armenian people are a dignified people. The
people of Armenian descent in our country concentrate on hard work, on
achievement and on preserving their dignity, but they also keep their
culture. They have integrated, but they have not been assimilated. To
be Armenian is to be a good citizen, but it is also to be different.
That unique, special Armenian quality is worthy of a little
recognition.
Can we not finally say it in this House--maybe not tonight, maybe
not even before the election, but some time soon? For years it has
been our policy to deny that the Armenian genocide took place, and
yet we have the FCO briefing here that talks about the suffering of
the Armenian people. Would it hurt so much? Are we not straining at
the gnat here? Could we not go that last little bit and say, "Yes,
it happened."? Then, hopefully, the wave of global condemnation
would wash up even across the battlements in Ankara and the Turkish
Government would admit that their predecessors, the Ottoman Government
back in 1915, did commit appalling crimes.
I was in this House, as were you, Mr Speaker, when the then Prime
Minister, Mr Blair, apologised for the Irish famine of 1848. He
apologised on behalf of this country for an appalling act that was
horrendous in its brutality and in its impact on the Irish people. He
felt justified in apologising for that. Some people said that he
should not have done so. I think that he did so because this country
was very much a part of that process. I think that Mr Blair did the
right thing in apologising.
We have an opportunity tonight to do the right thing, and not just by
our Armenian friends, our Armenian brothers and sisters, our Armenian
community, our Armenian fellow citizens--those people who have earned
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1264
the right to our respect and friendship through their contribution
to our society. We have an opportunity to do the right thing not just
for the sake of Armenia and the Armenian people, but for the sake of
humanity. Humanity really needs to recognise what happened in 1915. As
long as it is denied, it can happen again. As long as we say, "It
didn't happen", we echo the terrible words that everybody remembers
from Hitler in 1939, when he justified the invasion of Poland by
saying, "Who now remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?"
I think that all decent people, all human beings, recognise and
remember the annihilation of the Armenians, and I hope that we are all
determined to recognise it and ensure that it never happens again. I
say to my Armenian friends, fellow citizens and Armenian brothers
and sisters: we thank you for all you have done for this country,
and this is our small way of returning that thanks.
11 pm
Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): I congratulate the hon. Member
for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) on obtaining this debate and putting
with his customary eloquence the case for why it is important that
we in this House remember what was one of the first great crimes of
the 20th century. He has worked on behalf of his constituents from
Armenia and the Armenian community generally for a long time, and it
was a pleasure to be in Yerevan with him just over a year ago.
It is entirely right that we in this House mark the centenary of the
Armenian genocide. We have commemorated other genocides here, such as
those that took place in the Balkans and in Rwanda and, of course,
the holocaust. As the hon. Gentleman said, the term "genocide" was
originally coined by Raphael Lemkin who, when he came to describe
what had happened to his own people--the Jewish people--initially
had the experience of hearing about the massacre of the Armenians,
which undoubtedly influenced him.
The hon. Gentleman made a strong case, and I concur that we should use
the term "genocide" to describe what was clearly a deliberate attempt
to kill an entire people. In a sense, whether we use that word or not
there is no question but that the massacre of more than 1 million
people--perhaps 1.5 million Armenians who were either massacred or
starved to death--was a horrendous crime. Both he and I have visited
the memorial to the genocide in Yerevan and the museum, and anybody
who goes there can be left in no doubt of the true horror of what
occurred. The evidence is overwhelming. Those who try to dismiss it
cannot argue with the records, photographs and accounts of witnesses,
both Armenian and international, not least those from this country
whose testimony is perhaps among the most powerful. As a result, it is
important that we remember what happened, and renew our determination
to ensure that that kind of event never happens again.
The hon. Gentleman is right to say that this is not about apportioning
blame, certainly not to the present Turkish Government, and I welcome
the fact that the Prime Minister of Turkey talked about the shared pain
and offered his condolences a year ago. I hope that that provides an
opportunity to try to build reconciliation between Armenia and Turkey,
and to normalise relations and perhaps in due course to re-open the
border between those two countries. I hope that can still be achieved.
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1265
I was very struck by a speech that I heard not long ago by the former
Prime Minister of Armenia and Armenian ambassador to this country,
Dr Armen Sarkissian. He said that of course we should remember what
occurred and commemorate the loss of life, but that more importantly
it is an opportunity to celebrate the survival of a great people
and a great country. I am delighted that we have had the chance this
evening to put that on record in this place, and in four weeks' time
I shall be honoured to pay my own tribute in Yerevan to those who died.
11.4 pm
The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): I congratulate the hon.
Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) on securing the debate. I
pay tribute to the moving way in which both he and my hon. Friend
the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) spoke about the tragedy that
befell the Armenian people just over 100 years ago.
It was on 24 April 1915 that about 250 leading members of the Armenian
community in Istanbul were arrested. This marked the beginning of a
campaign of forced deportations directed against the Ottoman Armenian
community. From 1915 to 1916 during the course of the deportations to
the Syrian desert, it is estimated that well over 1 million Ottoman
Armenians lost their lives as a result of massacres by soldiers or
irregulars, forced marches, starvation and disease. A number of other
minorities, such as the Assyrians, also suffered.
The British Government of that time robustly condemned the forced
deportations, massacres and other crimes. We continue to endorse
that view. British charities, as we look back, played a major part
then in humanitarian relief operations. The deaths of more than 1
million Armenians in the Ottoman empire was an appalling civilian
loss of life against the backdrop of the first world war, a conflict
which itself broke new ground in developing international warfare on
an industrial scale.
Today, the centenary of those terrible events has huge significance,
as the hon. Member for Ealing North said, for the people of Armenia
and for the worldwide Armenian diaspora. As an inseparable part of
the tragedy of first world war, it is entirely appropriate that we
in this country include this tragedy in our remembrance of the first
world war to honour the dead, and to draw lessons from history and
hope for a better future. The British Government's commemorations
this year have focused on how the first world war shaped society and
touched lives and communities. The deportation and massacres of the
Ottoman Armenians, and the role played by the UK and other allies in
reporting the atrocities and helping the survivors, are an indivisible
part of that story. The events and commemorative activities, which
the Armenian community in the UK will organise on 24 April and over
the course of this year, will help to illuminate further that period
of history for British people, some of whom may be hearing about it
for the first time.
The appalling nature of the events of 1915-16 were brought home
vividly to me when I visited the Tsitsernakaberd memorial museum in
Yerevan during my first ministerial visit to Armenia in 2012. When
I went back to Armenia last year, I laid a wreath at the memorial to
pay my respects to those who had died and
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1266
those who had suffered. As has been said, in this centenary year my
hon. Friend the Member for Maldon, as chair of the British-Armenian
all-party group, and our ambassador to Yerevan will be present at
the Armenian Government's commemorations on 24 April in the Armenian
capital.
As discussed in today's debate, for this country and the Commonwealth
the dates of 24 and 25 April have great significance for an additional
reason, as the days we remember the centenary of the allied landings
at Gallipoli. On 24 April, His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales will
attend a ceremony in Gallipoli to honour the memory of all those who
died during the campaign, including soldiers from Britain, Ireland,
France, Australia, New Zealand, the Indian subcontinent, Canada and
Sri Lanka, as well as the Ottoman soldiers who died defending the
peninsula. Those sombre commemorations in both Gallipoli and Yerevan
should be used to honour the memory of those who lost their lives,
whether soldiers or civilians, and to reflect carefully on the painful
lessons we have learnt from history and how to prevent such events
from happening again.
The hon. Member for Ealing North asked me a direct question about
the Government's policy on the recognition of the events in Armenia
as a genocide. I have to say to him that the Government's policy,
indeed the policy of successive Governments, has not changed since
1988 when this matter was reviewed. We take the view that genocide is
not simply an expression of a political judgment. It is now a crime,
and the British Government recognise as genocide only those events
found to be so by international courts--for example, the holocaust and
the massacres in Srebrenica and Rwanda. We do not exercise a political
judgment in ascribing the term "genocide" to a set of events, whether
in Armenia, the Holodomor in Ukraine or the massacres of the Kurds
by Saddam Hussein in 1998.
In honouring and reflecting upon the past, it is vital that we look
to the future. The peoples and Governments of Turkey and Armenia need
to find a way to face their joint history together and forge a new,
more constructive relationship, and part of the role the UK seeks for
itself is to support them in finding this path forward. I will not
pretend that we from London can provide instant answers, but we are
doing what we can practically to foster people-to-people exchanges
and links between the two countries to break down stereotypes and
barriers. For example, we have just completed a successful exchange
of Turkish and Armenian Chevening alumni who visited each other's
countries for the first time.
Ultimately, the Governments of Armenia and Turkey must take the lead in
forging and delivering that new relationship. For that reason, the UK
Government strongly supported the imaginative diplomacy that led to the
Turkish-Armenia protocols in 2009. The protocols envisaged opening the
border and initiating diplomatic relations without any preconditions,
and it is a matter of great regret that the ratification process for
those protocols has not moved forward. I hope that both sides will
continue to consider creative ways to re-set their relations and open
up new channels for dialogue and co-operation.
This year, we will reflect with sadness on the nature and horrific
scale of the deportations, massacres and other crimes in 1915-16 and on
the importance of this centenary for Armenia and Armenians worldwide,
but we will also renew our commitment this year to promote
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1267
reconciliation between Armenia and Turkey. A genuine step forward along
that path to reconciliation would take us towards a more peaceful and
secure future for everyone living in the region. I continue to hope
that both Turkey and Armenia can find a way to look together towards
a brighter future.
Stephen Pound: I have immense respect for the right hon. Gentleman--he
and I have met the President of Armenia, and I entirely respect his
position--but immediately after the genocide, the British Navy took
50 of the worst suspects from the Young Turks to Malta to try them
because it recognised that what had happened was against civilisation.
There was not sufficient legislation at the time for the trial to
take place so the British took them back--probably rightly so--but
does he not agree
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1268
that we need that recognition now so as to avoid such a situation
in the future? I am not criticising Turkey. I am talking about the
Ottoman empire.
Mr Lidington: I hesitate to get into a legal dispute with the hon.
Gentleman, but we take the view, as have successive British
Governments, that international law, including the 1948 protocol on
genocide, is not retroactive, and that is part of the explanation for
our position. That is not to detract from the horror of what took place
100 years ago, or to suggest that we will draw back from our commitment
to seek the reconciliation of the peoples of Turkey and Armenia and
to strive as hard as we can to bring about that much desired outcome.
Question put and agreed to.
11.14 pm
House adjourned.
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1269
Mr Speaker's Ruling (Presentation of Public Petitions by Ministers)
The following Private Ruling given by Mr Speaker is published in
accordance with the Speaker's undertaking of 5 November 1981 (Official
Report, c. 113)
When a Member of the House accepts appointment as a Minister
of the Crown, he or she accedes to the convention on collective
responsibility.
The procedures of the House depend on its being able to rely on the
presumption that whenever a Minister speaks or acts in the course
of its proceedings, he or she does so on behalf of Her Majesty's
Government. Ministers cannot choose to assume or divest themselves
of their
23 Mar 2015 : Column 1270
status as Ministers of the Crown in the course of the House's
proceedings--this would introduce a degree of uncertainty and ambiguity
which would be injurious to the clarity of its proceedings.
The specific question has been raised with me whether a Minister can
present a public petition on the Floor of the House. The Government
cannot present a petition, and a Minister cannot act as a private
Member. I have therefore ruled that a Minister cannot present a public
petition on the Floor of the House.
Ministers are, however, free to present a public petition informally
(that is, by depositing it in the petitions bag at any time at which
the House is sitting), but the Votes and Proceedings will not in such
cases identify the Member who deposited the petition.