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The Nation, Kenya
July 21, 2006
Anger at Armenians not racist, says Kituyi
Story by LUCAS BARASA and MUGUMO MUNENE
Publication Date: 07/22/2006
The public anger directed at the Artur brothers is not tied to racism,
Trade minister Mukhisa Kituyi said yesterday.
Dr Kituyi said that the mob response experienced by the brothers on
the streets of Nairobi in March and at JKIA on June 8 did not amount
to racial attacks.
Conversely, Dr Kituyi said, the brothers had thrown racial epithets
at Kenyans on the day they caused a commotion at JKIA calling them
"niggers and monkeys."
The minister was answering questions before the Kiruki commission
in response to questions by Dr Gibson Kamau Kuria when he testified
yesterday.
Dr Kuria, who represents Ms Winnie Wangui, had suggested through his
questions, that the public wanted to attack the Arturs on the two
occasions because they were White.
And in answer to Ms Jane Ondieki for CID chief Joseph Kamau, Dr Kituyi
said his wife was also a White, that Nairobi was multi-racial, and
that he could not allow Kenyans to be insulted in their own country.
Excerpts:
Kuria: Dr Kituyi, I want to ask you some questions in respect to your
capacities as a scholar and as a minister. Where did you understand
the gun incident was involved?
Kituyi: My understanding was that there had been some fracas around
the desk of the customs officers, which is between the exit and the
conveyor belt of the baggage.
Kuria: I think everyone would share your anger and accept the issue
ought to have been handled the way you suggested, according to the
situation, as had been communicated to you. The evidence presented to
the commission was that there was no incident involving a gun inside
the baggage hall. That is the first thing that has been confirmed
by everybody.
Oduor: Sorry, honourable commissioners. I don't want to interfere with
Dr Kamau Kuria, but I think that issue has not been confirmed. Some
witnesses say the incident happened inside the baggage hall, while
others say outside the baggage hall. So it is misleading to tell the
witness that it has been confirmed there was no incident inside the
baggage hall. We have two sides of the story.
Kuria: We can consult the records. Even Mr Nambale himself and Mr
Ochieng' said they saw guns drawn outside the baggage hall. There's no
issue as far as the evidence is concerned. I just wanted to (question)
the minister, according to the controversies that some guns might
have been drawn outside the baggage hall. The other evidence is
that there was one gun involved at the car park. These are the three
positions. Now, would your reaction have been the same if you had to
know that in fact there was no gun drawn on any public official in
the baggage hall?
Kituyi: Okay, two things. I did not consider - when this account was
given to me - it important to know at what exact point a gun might
have been drawn. My anger was not even founded on the issue of the
gun. My anger was first and foremost founded on action of impunity
against officers of law and order. That any person whether armed with
a gun or not and worse, a foreigner, and even worse, using racist
epithets against African Kenyan officers of the State, is sufficient
to stir anger in me as an officer of the Republic. I don't think even
if there would have been no mention of the gun, I would have been
happy with what was happening. Just the fact that some foreigners
could come at the airport, rough their way around, and call Africans
monkeys and niggers, was sufficient to arouse anger in me. I have not
pretended that I can give a specific statement about guns where they
were located. I was just told guns were involved. I don't think I even
asked whether it was inside the cargo bay or outside. My assumption was
that it was in the cargo bay area where I was told the drama unfolded.
Kuria: Your anger was that, yet what appears to be another wrong-doing
on the part of these people had occurred, but no action was being
taken against them. I think that was your position.
Kituyi: Not necessarily. My position is like I said it, which is that
something is not being done again and these people are going on.
Kuria: When exactly did your flight arrive at the airport?
Kituyi: My flight was supposed to arrive around 8.30pm, but I think
we taxied in at about 8.45.
Kuria: So it is true all that you relied on what you were told by
your bodyguard and one other person. Who else supplied the information?
Kituyi: A security officer who I hear from the media has since been
suspended.
Kuria: Mr Kimuhu, the one who talked to Hon Michuki.
Kituyi: Yes.
Kuria: Would you be surprised to hear that according to the evidence
he gave, he saw no incident involving guns either at the baggage hall
or outside the baggage hall?
Kituyi: I would not be surprised. I said that I was told about the
incident of guns by my aide, Senior Sergeant Masinde. If he is the
one who says he never saw any guns, that is when the story becomes
different.
Kuria: Did your bodyguard tell where he was when this matter was
going on?
Kituyi: He was in the airport waiting to receive me. He was in the
baggage hall.
Kuria: Of course you are conversant with the doctrine of collective
responsibility of ministers.
Kituyi: Yes.
Kuria: And in fact, in calling upon Hon Michuki, Hon Martha Karua
and director of CID, you were acting as a government minister who
had witnessed the occasion, and had responsibility to take some action.
Kituyi: Yes, at least to inform the right minister to take some action.
Kuria: In view of the sensitivity of the matter, and in view of the
fact that you had not yourself witnessed the events, did you consider
the danger there might be of acting on wrong information and the best
thing was to leave Hon Michuki to have the investigations done?
Kituyi: What I told Joseph Kamau was that I expected him to get to
the bottom of the story and show by action that he was in-charge
of security and that this government does not condone this kind of
madness. I didn't instruct him on what to do.
Kuria: But the two things that you kind of advised were acted on. First
the expulsion and second the arrest.
Kituyi: That one I did not say to Kamau, and I did not say to
Michuki. That was not part of my dialogue with Hon Michuki.
Kuria: You also of course recommended that they be arrested?
Kituyi: I didn't. I only said purposeful action.
Kuria: As a minister, did you consider that it was safe to actually
give recommendations for the government to act on the basis of just
what you had received from your bodyguard and the security officer?
Kituyi: To act for me includes to investigate properly, what has
happened and to assess what is the best cause of action to prove that
we do not condone this kind of outrageous action. It does not just
mean to get these guys and jail them.
Kuria: You were actually outraged by the fact that Mr Kimuhu, with
your request to talk to Hon Michuki, has been suspended for actually
just acting responsibly as you did.
Kituyi: I'm not outraged, but I find it rather strange.
Kuria: I guess you would also be outraged or surprised to know
that officers like Senior Sergeant Tumbo, Chief Inspector Gikonyo,
Inspector Mwambia, who were off duty, were also suspended following
that incident?
Kituyi: To my mind, the relevant organs of the State have to find
what is the best modus operandi for executing their mandate. If they
consider that certain officers, even if they were not materially
present on a given day, could potentially inhibit their efforts to
get report of a story, they take appropriate action. I don't want to
walk into territory that is slippery, which has nothing to do with me.
Kuria: Does it appear from suspension of Kimuhu that in fact there
was over-reaction in some arms or parts of the Government?
Kituyi: I have not looked at that properly, so I don't know what
appears.
Kuria: You had no time to consider whether it was right to have
definite conclusions before investigations into the matter had
been made.
Kituyi: I cannot rush to conclusions broadly, but I have said that
racist statements, a threat to security of our premier international
airport at a time when America was saying it was encouraged by progress
being made by Kenya for graduating Jomo Kenyatta International Airport
as a source for direct flights into the US. This represented a major
setback for Kenya. It slowed down the benefits of my efforts. That
was sufficient to outrage me, but I don't draw conclusions about
concrete actions and capability of individuals. But I think that
it is indefensible that a White person can call Africans at airport
broadly racist names. I have heard lots of that in their countries,
I don't want that to happen in my own country.
Kuria: I think that through the political campaigns over the years,
honourable minister, you have seen nastiness from our citizens,
and of course you have never condoned that nastiness. So you will
agree that nastiness is part of human nature, whether you are Black
or White. Is it not?
Kituyi: I don't know that nastiness, just because crime happens,
is part of human nature to be criminal.
Kuria: Let me put the question differently. I will say that crimes
are committed by people of different races. Crime is not inherent in
any particular race, isn't it?
Kituyi: Yes, there are criminals across the racial divide.
Kuria: So whether it is criminals in my constituency, when they do
wrong, the best way is to deal with them in accordance with the law,
not their backgrounds?
Kituyi: That is correct.
Kuria: Would you agree that the media had depicted before June 8,
that these people are criminals for whose blood the Kenyans were
baying? Isn't it?
Kituyi: You could read that that way. I thought the media broadly
portrayed these as strange fellows. Not so much as criminals.
Kuria: You are familiar with the incident in March, where they were
reported to be in Kenyatta Avenue, and members of the public were
baying for their blood? You remember that?
Kituyi: Yes.
Kuria: So you agree that racial attitudes were coming from two
sides. From these foreigners, and also from Kenyans.
Kituyi: No. If you check that picture of one of those fellows making
a phone call on his mobile phone, you will see on the background a
non-African who was not being targeted, who was not being booed by the
Kenyan Africans. I don't think Kenyans were involved in racist attack
on people because they were Whites. I didn't hear any media quoting
that these people had been attacked for their race. So you cannot
say that because they were being booed, there was racism against them.
Kuria: Racial behaviour was only coming from these foreigners?
Kituyi: ...I have not heard of any (such) incident (from Kenyans).
Kuria: Let's go back to our national lives. I guess honourable minister
you really have had to save some victims of violence from people
who want to beat them, either because they belong to a different
political camp.
Kituyi: I have experienced wanton politically related violence at
very personal level.
Kuria: In fact, your stance has been that every individual must be
protected by law and there must be no mob-justice.
Kituyi: Absolutely.
Kuria: In view of the negotiations that you had conducted depicting the
country clearly as one that is evolving as democratic and prosperous,
and the information presented to you, do you now realise that you might
have over-reacted after your were told what happened at the airport?
Kituyi: Over-reacted in what direction?
Kuria: In wanting action to be taken against these people who have
ruined your programme and are insulting the sovereignty of the nation.
Kituyi: I really explained that the only time I expressed opinion
on what should be done on them was on what I know is summary action
taken by government of Switzerland on matters that seemed very similar
to this. I have never thought that Switzerland was less democratic
because of expelling underworld operatives from eastern Europe.
Kuria: If now I may sum up what appears to be your view. It was
that according to our law, we have a right to decide which foreigner
is going to be in our country and we have a right to terminate the
residence of any person on our soil. That's something that can be
done summarily and you are suggesting that we must now exercise our
rights and put an end to this indignity.
Kituyi: To my understanding, entry and residence in Kenya is not
a right, it is a privilege accorded to you by the State. It can be
withdrawn. Our citizens are paying a high fortune to be allowed to
go and see their children graduating in Britain. Even senior public
persons in this country are unilaterally declared persona non grata
in America and Britain. They don't take you to any court before they
decide that. If the mothers of democracy exercise that right, we
babies of democracy must also exercise capacity to ensure that right.
Kuria: In fact when talking to Hon Michuki, Hon Karua and the director
of CID, you were not asking for the laws to be bent. You were just
saying let's exercise our legal rights and solve this problem.
Kituyi: Yes.
Kuria: Therefore, if anything has been done improperly after that,
it cannot be on the basis of over-reaction or incompetence on the
part of people concerned?
Kituyi: I don't think that anything done illegally on the basis of
my remarks that firm action be taken to prove that the Government
cannot condone this impunity would be instruction to break the law.
Ondieki: Would you be surprised that because of his action (Kimuhu's)
of talking to you and perhaps also his minister and explaining his
position, he was suspended?
Kituyi: I cannot explain an opinion on a matter I can't totally
understand what occasioned, because I know of officers at the airport
at the same time who never spoke to me nor to Michuki who have since
been suspended.
Ondieki: You said that at the same time you talked to the CID boss,
Mr Kamau, and told him something had to be done to redeem the image
of our country. Would you remember what Mr Kamau replied?
Ondieki: I don't remember Kamau telling me anything...
Ondieki: Were you aware that these people were arrested on the
same night?
Kituyi: Subsequently, I did learn that.
Ondieki: So subsequently, action was taken.
Kituyi: Yes, early in the morning, I rung the head of public service
and he gave me an account of what happened. Hon Michuki also called
me that after the conversation, he had taken action.
Ondieki: What I was asking you is that after expressing your outrage,
talking to the director of CID and other ministers, action was
indeed taken?
Kituyi: I cannot say that way. In logic - I used to be a student of
logic at one time - we were told that just because something happened
before another one, does not mean it is the cause of the next one. It
is true that my conversations preceded action, but does not guarantee
that my conversations triggered the action.
July 21, 2006
Anger at Armenians not racist, says Kituyi
Story by LUCAS BARASA and MUGUMO MUNENE
Publication Date: 07/22/2006
The public anger directed at the Artur brothers is not tied to racism,
Trade minister Mukhisa Kituyi said yesterday.
Dr Kituyi said that the mob response experienced by the brothers on
the streets of Nairobi in March and at JKIA on June 8 did not amount
to racial attacks.
Conversely, Dr Kituyi said, the brothers had thrown racial epithets
at Kenyans on the day they caused a commotion at JKIA calling them
"niggers and monkeys."
The minister was answering questions before the Kiruki commission
in response to questions by Dr Gibson Kamau Kuria when he testified
yesterday.
Dr Kuria, who represents Ms Winnie Wangui, had suggested through his
questions, that the public wanted to attack the Arturs on the two
occasions because they were White.
And in answer to Ms Jane Ondieki for CID chief Joseph Kamau, Dr Kituyi
said his wife was also a White, that Nairobi was multi-racial, and
that he could not allow Kenyans to be insulted in their own country.
Excerpts:
Kuria: Dr Kituyi, I want to ask you some questions in respect to your
capacities as a scholar and as a minister. Where did you understand
the gun incident was involved?
Kituyi: My understanding was that there had been some fracas around
the desk of the customs officers, which is between the exit and the
conveyor belt of the baggage.
Kuria: I think everyone would share your anger and accept the issue
ought to have been handled the way you suggested, according to the
situation, as had been communicated to you. The evidence presented to
the commission was that there was no incident involving a gun inside
the baggage hall. That is the first thing that has been confirmed
by everybody.
Oduor: Sorry, honourable commissioners. I don't want to interfere with
Dr Kamau Kuria, but I think that issue has not been confirmed. Some
witnesses say the incident happened inside the baggage hall, while
others say outside the baggage hall. So it is misleading to tell the
witness that it has been confirmed there was no incident inside the
baggage hall. We have two sides of the story.
Kuria: We can consult the records. Even Mr Nambale himself and Mr
Ochieng' said they saw guns drawn outside the baggage hall. There's no
issue as far as the evidence is concerned. I just wanted to (question)
the minister, according to the controversies that some guns might
have been drawn outside the baggage hall. The other evidence is
that there was one gun involved at the car park. These are the three
positions. Now, would your reaction have been the same if you had to
know that in fact there was no gun drawn on any public official in
the baggage hall?
Kituyi: Okay, two things. I did not consider - when this account was
given to me - it important to know at what exact point a gun might
have been drawn. My anger was not even founded on the issue of the
gun. My anger was first and foremost founded on action of impunity
against officers of law and order. That any person whether armed with
a gun or not and worse, a foreigner, and even worse, using racist
epithets against African Kenyan officers of the State, is sufficient
to stir anger in me as an officer of the Republic. I don't think even
if there would have been no mention of the gun, I would have been
happy with what was happening. Just the fact that some foreigners
could come at the airport, rough their way around, and call Africans
monkeys and niggers, was sufficient to arouse anger in me. I have not
pretended that I can give a specific statement about guns where they
were located. I was just told guns were involved. I don't think I even
asked whether it was inside the cargo bay or outside. My assumption was
that it was in the cargo bay area where I was told the drama unfolded.
Kuria: Your anger was that, yet what appears to be another wrong-doing
on the part of these people had occurred, but no action was being
taken against them. I think that was your position.
Kituyi: Not necessarily. My position is like I said it, which is that
something is not being done again and these people are going on.
Kuria: When exactly did your flight arrive at the airport?
Kituyi: My flight was supposed to arrive around 8.30pm, but I think
we taxied in at about 8.45.
Kuria: So it is true all that you relied on what you were told by
your bodyguard and one other person. Who else supplied the information?
Kituyi: A security officer who I hear from the media has since been
suspended.
Kuria: Mr Kimuhu, the one who talked to Hon Michuki.
Kituyi: Yes.
Kuria: Would you be surprised to hear that according to the evidence
he gave, he saw no incident involving guns either at the baggage hall
or outside the baggage hall?
Kituyi: I would not be surprised. I said that I was told about the
incident of guns by my aide, Senior Sergeant Masinde. If he is the
one who says he never saw any guns, that is when the story becomes
different.
Kuria: Did your bodyguard tell where he was when this matter was
going on?
Kituyi: He was in the airport waiting to receive me. He was in the
baggage hall.
Kuria: Of course you are conversant with the doctrine of collective
responsibility of ministers.
Kituyi: Yes.
Kuria: And in fact, in calling upon Hon Michuki, Hon Martha Karua
and director of CID, you were acting as a government minister who
had witnessed the occasion, and had responsibility to take some action.
Kituyi: Yes, at least to inform the right minister to take some action.
Kuria: In view of the sensitivity of the matter, and in view of the
fact that you had not yourself witnessed the events, did you consider
the danger there might be of acting on wrong information and the best
thing was to leave Hon Michuki to have the investigations done?
Kituyi: What I told Joseph Kamau was that I expected him to get to
the bottom of the story and show by action that he was in-charge
of security and that this government does not condone this kind of
madness. I didn't instruct him on what to do.
Kuria: But the two things that you kind of advised were acted on. First
the expulsion and second the arrest.
Kituyi: That one I did not say to Kamau, and I did not say to
Michuki. That was not part of my dialogue with Hon Michuki.
Kuria: You also of course recommended that they be arrested?
Kituyi: I didn't. I only said purposeful action.
Kuria: As a minister, did you consider that it was safe to actually
give recommendations for the government to act on the basis of just
what you had received from your bodyguard and the security officer?
Kituyi: To act for me includes to investigate properly, what has
happened and to assess what is the best cause of action to prove that
we do not condone this kind of outrageous action. It does not just
mean to get these guys and jail them.
Kuria: You were actually outraged by the fact that Mr Kimuhu, with
your request to talk to Hon Michuki, has been suspended for actually
just acting responsibly as you did.
Kituyi: I'm not outraged, but I find it rather strange.
Kuria: I guess you would also be outraged or surprised to know
that officers like Senior Sergeant Tumbo, Chief Inspector Gikonyo,
Inspector Mwambia, who were off duty, were also suspended following
that incident?
Kituyi: To my mind, the relevant organs of the State have to find
what is the best modus operandi for executing their mandate. If they
consider that certain officers, even if they were not materially
present on a given day, could potentially inhibit their efforts to
get report of a story, they take appropriate action. I don't want to
walk into territory that is slippery, which has nothing to do with me.
Kuria: Does it appear from suspension of Kimuhu that in fact there
was over-reaction in some arms or parts of the Government?
Kituyi: I have not looked at that properly, so I don't know what
appears.
Kuria: You had no time to consider whether it was right to have
definite conclusions before investigations into the matter had
been made.
Kituyi: I cannot rush to conclusions broadly, but I have said that
racist statements, a threat to security of our premier international
airport at a time when America was saying it was encouraged by progress
being made by Kenya for graduating Jomo Kenyatta International Airport
as a source for direct flights into the US. This represented a major
setback for Kenya. It slowed down the benefits of my efforts. That
was sufficient to outrage me, but I don't draw conclusions about
concrete actions and capability of individuals. But I think that
it is indefensible that a White person can call Africans at airport
broadly racist names. I have heard lots of that in their countries,
I don't want that to happen in my own country.
Kuria: I think that through the political campaigns over the years,
honourable minister, you have seen nastiness from our citizens,
and of course you have never condoned that nastiness. So you will
agree that nastiness is part of human nature, whether you are Black
or White. Is it not?
Kituyi: I don't know that nastiness, just because crime happens,
is part of human nature to be criminal.
Kuria: Let me put the question differently. I will say that crimes
are committed by people of different races. Crime is not inherent in
any particular race, isn't it?
Kituyi: Yes, there are criminals across the racial divide.
Kuria: So whether it is criminals in my constituency, when they do
wrong, the best way is to deal with them in accordance with the law,
not their backgrounds?
Kituyi: That is correct.
Kuria: Would you agree that the media had depicted before June 8,
that these people are criminals for whose blood the Kenyans were
baying? Isn't it?
Kituyi: You could read that that way. I thought the media broadly
portrayed these as strange fellows. Not so much as criminals.
Kuria: You are familiar with the incident in March, where they were
reported to be in Kenyatta Avenue, and members of the public were
baying for their blood? You remember that?
Kituyi: Yes.
Kuria: So you agree that racial attitudes were coming from two
sides. From these foreigners, and also from Kenyans.
Kituyi: No. If you check that picture of one of those fellows making
a phone call on his mobile phone, you will see on the background a
non-African who was not being targeted, who was not being booed by the
Kenyan Africans. I don't think Kenyans were involved in racist attack
on people because they were Whites. I didn't hear any media quoting
that these people had been attacked for their race. So you cannot
say that because they were being booed, there was racism against them.
Kuria: Racial behaviour was only coming from these foreigners?
Kituyi: ...I have not heard of any (such) incident (from Kenyans).
Kuria: Let's go back to our national lives. I guess honourable minister
you really have had to save some victims of violence from people
who want to beat them, either because they belong to a different
political camp.
Kituyi: I have experienced wanton politically related violence at
very personal level.
Kuria: In fact, your stance has been that every individual must be
protected by law and there must be no mob-justice.
Kituyi: Absolutely.
Kuria: In view of the negotiations that you had conducted depicting the
country clearly as one that is evolving as democratic and prosperous,
and the information presented to you, do you now realise that you might
have over-reacted after your were told what happened at the airport?
Kituyi: Over-reacted in what direction?
Kuria: In wanting action to be taken against these people who have
ruined your programme and are insulting the sovereignty of the nation.
Kituyi: I really explained that the only time I expressed opinion
on what should be done on them was on what I know is summary action
taken by government of Switzerland on matters that seemed very similar
to this. I have never thought that Switzerland was less democratic
because of expelling underworld operatives from eastern Europe.
Kuria: If now I may sum up what appears to be your view. It was
that according to our law, we have a right to decide which foreigner
is going to be in our country and we have a right to terminate the
residence of any person on our soil. That's something that can be
done summarily and you are suggesting that we must now exercise our
rights and put an end to this indignity.
Kituyi: To my understanding, entry and residence in Kenya is not
a right, it is a privilege accorded to you by the State. It can be
withdrawn. Our citizens are paying a high fortune to be allowed to
go and see their children graduating in Britain. Even senior public
persons in this country are unilaterally declared persona non grata
in America and Britain. They don't take you to any court before they
decide that. If the mothers of democracy exercise that right, we
babies of democracy must also exercise capacity to ensure that right.
Kuria: In fact when talking to Hon Michuki, Hon Karua and the director
of CID, you were not asking for the laws to be bent. You were just
saying let's exercise our legal rights and solve this problem.
Kituyi: Yes.
Kuria: Therefore, if anything has been done improperly after that,
it cannot be on the basis of over-reaction or incompetence on the
part of people concerned?
Kituyi: I don't think that anything done illegally on the basis of
my remarks that firm action be taken to prove that the Government
cannot condone this impunity would be instruction to break the law.
Ondieki: Would you be surprised that because of his action (Kimuhu's)
of talking to you and perhaps also his minister and explaining his
position, he was suspended?
Kituyi: I cannot explain an opinion on a matter I can't totally
understand what occasioned, because I know of officers at the airport
at the same time who never spoke to me nor to Michuki who have since
been suspended.
Ondieki: You said that at the same time you talked to the CID boss,
Mr Kamau, and told him something had to be done to redeem the image
of our country. Would you remember what Mr Kamau replied?
Ondieki: I don't remember Kamau telling me anything...
Ondieki: Were you aware that these people were arrested on the
same night?
Kituyi: Subsequently, I did learn that.
Ondieki: So subsequently, action was taken.
Kituyi: Yes, early in the morning, I rung the head of public service
and he gave me an account of what happened. Hon Michuki also called
me that after the conversation, he had taken action.
Ondieki: What I was asking you is that after expressing your outrage,
talking to the director of CID and other ministers, action was
indeed taken?
Kituyi: I cannot say that way. In logic - I used to be a student of
logic at one time - we were told that just because something happened
before another one, does not mean it is the cause of the next one. It
is true that my conversations preceded action, but does not guarantee
that my conversations triggered the action.